Vent: My son unintentionally shamed my brother, who then "told on me" to our parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Your son did nothing wrong.
2. You were right to put a stop to the interrogation. You did nothing wrong.
3. You were right to say what you did to your parents. You did nothing wrong.

Most people like your brother have undiagnosed, untreated, mental health disorders. They are too old to change much, unfortunately. The most common disorder is autism, which comes with all sorts of executive function issues, mental rigidity, social anxiety and OCD. Usually it's one of the latter symptoms that people see. ADHD and anxiety can be medicated, but autism needs to be addressed behaviorally from a young age, because there's no medication and you can only build social skills and life habits, not change the underlying neurodivergence. If your brother is also tired, maybe he has a physical condition, such as sleep apnea. He should consult his doctor, if he can be persuaded to do so.

YOur 7 year old did nothing wrong. Your brother needs to stop being butt hurt about what a 7 year old says, and maybe actually listen to the 7 yr old. Kids will call it as they see it. Hmmmm, my parents are adults and they work, why doesnt my uncle? It's not that hard.

If the brother has mental health issues, your parents aren't doing any favors to him by not stepping in and doing something about it. All they are doing is perpetuating the fragility and when your parents are gone, guess who will be expected to fix it? You. And noone is going to have the capacity to hear "i told you so" from you, even though you are right

OP, and you, have no idea what their dynamic is or what they are doing to help their son. Yes, some parents are enabling and allow adult children to mooch off them. Others are working privately to encourage therapy or medication (potentially meeting resistance, so a work in progress) or gaining government assistance etc etc. The issue here is that OP is completely disconnected from her brother by her own admission so she doesn’t really know. All she knows is that he gets financial assistance from her parents and doesn’t work.

Do you know what happens to parents whose adult sons dont work and the parents keep enabling and supporting the son and his entire family? The adult son loses his home. Ask me how I know

…how do you know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often people like this are mentally ill AND they have dysfunctional, overprotective parents. Their parents watch them struggle so much growing up or in young adulthood and they don’t know what to do or how to help, and they usually end up enabling or making the child feel even more helpless. I’ve seen this dynamic in my own family and it is frustrating and a little heartbreaking. 💔

Just be the bigger person Op and try to have some compassion.

Nope. The family knows how to get help. This is not the 1920s. They actively chose not to get help and keep it a big secret. It is one thing for the parents to explain to OP that her brother has struggled since childhood and has tried therapies and meds and is considered a very complex case and then OP can figure out how to share with kids so they are compassionate. It's another thing to NOT get your child help all these years or to do it in secret and gaslight the family and insist all is normal and there is nothing going on and dump the brother on OP without any explanation that there is a serious mental health issue. There is SHAME in having a struggling child and not getting help for that child and thinking you can dump the problem on your other children. OPs parents can even set up boundaries now with the brother and they can get their own therapy for ideas on how to have boundaries and what to say to other adult children about the situation.

How do you force an adult to get help? Have you any experience with this?

You get them help as a child. Once you have an adult you get your own professional help to figure out what boundaries to set. If you let someone live rent free, you have parameters they are capable of with whatever disability. Chores in the house. Trying out several therapists and choosing one. Getting a psychiatric evaluation. As far as we know this family did NOTHING all these years. If they did try to get help, then work with a therapist to figure out how to share his issues with OP so it isn't, this whole pretending nothing is wrong. The fact the mom sends an adult son with loads of laundry to OP and things OP is going to accommodate that is insane. He clearly isn't physically disabled. An intellectually disabled person can do laundry. A mentally ill person can do laundry. If there is some issue that keeps him from being able to do his own darn laundry, it needs to be shared.

No his personal information does not have to be shared with a sister he isn’t even that close to! OP rightfully stopped the laundry issue on her own as well she should have.

Her brother’s financial dependence on his parents is between them and is their issue to resolve. Unless brother is asking OP for money or long term care, none of this if her business. She just doesn’t like that he doesn’t work and she is entitled to that opinion but that’s all it is.

This dude rolled up with his dirty drawers for his sister to launder, he feels plenty close. He doesn't want to work, his parents won't hold him accountable/get him help and his sister isn't there for it. And his nephew knows it's bonkers. All those things CAN be true!

THIS. they don't get to admonish OP for allowing a kid to ask to ask a NORMAL question. If they shared with OP he is disabled and getting help, she could explain that to her kids in advance in a developmentally appropriate way. It's not OK to pretend everything is OK when it isn't and the kids NOTICE. OP did nothing wrong. She doesn't need to have empathy for someone who has no diagnosis and expects her to do his dirty laundry. This is the parent's problem. All OP can do is refuse to get drawn into this dysfunction. If she finds out her brother understands he has a problem and is getting help then cheer him on, but enabling is not needed.

If a 7 yr old allowed to judge and admonish an adult, so can OP be admonished for her kids behavior. It goes both ways.

The 7YO wasn't judging and admonishing an adult. He was asking questions that made his uncle uncomfortable because the uncle is used to people pretending that everything is fine, his behavior is fine, this is all normal.

I once read that you shouldn't tell kids you work because that's how you get money; supposedly, that makes kids worry that if you lose your job, the family will immediately be out on the street and starving. What you're supposed to do, the article said, was talk about how your job helps people: "I help sick people get better," "I make sure that people are treated fairly," and so on.

So when one of my kids, who idolized a kid with a SAHM, asked why I didn't stay home, I explained how I helped people. And then he wanted to know why they needed that help. And then he wanted to know what would happen if I didn't help them. And then he wanted to know why someone else couldn't help them. He was 5, possibly 6.

And he's now a responsible adult who minds his own business, but I am surprised when kids DON'T have a fistful of follow-up questions. They're supposed to be curious.

The answer to Richard Scarry's What Do People Do All Day? wasn't "Never you mind, nosy"

OP said he shamed his uncle. It's right there. That's not appropriate. And OP is mad she got called out for it. Oh well.

So every time someone feels shame, it’s someone else’s fault for “shaming” them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often people like this are mentally ill AND they have dysfunctional, overprotective parents. Their parents watch them struggle so much growing up or in young adulthood and they don’t know what to do or how to help, and they usually end up enabling or making the child feel even more helpless. I’ve seen this dynamic in my own family and it is frustrating and a little heartbreaking. 💔

Just be the bigger person Op and try to have some compassion.

Nope. The family knows how to get help. This is not the 1920s. They actively chose not to get help and keep it a big secret. It is one thing for the parents to explain to OP that her brother has struggled since childhood and has tried therapies and meds and is considered a very complex case and then OP can figure out how to share with kids so they are compassionate. It's another thing to NOT get your child help all these years or to do it in secret and gaslight the family and insist all is normal and there is nothing going on and dump the brother on OP without any explanation that there is a serious mental health issue. There is SHAME in having a struggling child and not getting help for that child and thinking you can dump the problem on your other children. OPs parents can even set up boundaries now with the brother and they can get their own therapy for ideas on how to have boundaries and what to say to other adult children about the situation.

How do you force an adult to get help? Have you any experience with this?

You get them help as a child. Once you have an adult you get your own professional help to figure out what boundaries to set. If you let someone live rent free, you have parameters they are capable of with whatever disability. Chores in the house. Trying out several therapists and choosing one. Getting a psychiatric evaluation. As far as we know this family did NOTHING all these years. If they did try to get help, then work with a therapist to figure out how to share his issues with OP so it isn't, this whole pretending nothing is wrong. The fact the mom sends an adult son with loads of laundry to OP and things OP is going to accommodate that is insane. He clearly isn't physically disabled. An intellectually disabled person can do laundry. A mentally ill person can do laundry. If there is some issue that keeps him from being able to do his own darn laundry, it needs to be shared.

No his personal information does not have to be shared with a sister he isn’t even that close to! OP rightfully stopped the laundry issue on her own as well she should have.

Her brother’s financial dependence on his parents is between them and is their issue to resolve. Unless brother is asking OP for money or long term care, none of this if her business. She just doesn’t like that he doesn’t work and she is entitled to that opinion but that’s all it is.

This dude rolled up with his dirty drawers for his sister to launder, he feels plenty close. He doesn't want to work, his parents won't hold him accountable/get him help and his sister isn't there for it. And his nephew knows it's bonkers. All those things CAN be true!

THIS. they don't get to admonish OP for allowing a kid to ask to ask a NORMAL question. If they shared with OP he is disabled and getting help, she could explain that to her kids in advance in a developmentally appropriate way. It's not OK to pretend everything is OK when it isn't and the kids NOTICE. OP did nothing wrong. She doesn't need to have empathy for someone who has no diagnosis and expects her to do his dirty laundry. This is the parent's problem. All OP can do is refuse to get drawn into this dysfunction. If she finds out her brother understands he has a problem and is getting help then cheer him on, but enabling is not needed.

If a 7 yr old allowed to judge and admonish an adult, so can OP be admonished for her kids behavior. It goes both ways.

The 7YO wasn't judging and admonishing an adult. He was asking questions that made his uncle uncomfortable because the uncle is used to people pretending that everything is fine, his behavior is fine, this is all normal.

I once read that you shouldn't tell kids you work because that's how you get money; supposedly, that makes kids worry that if you lose your job, the family will immediately be out on the street and starving. What you're supposed to do, the article said, was talk about how your job helps people: "I help sick people get better," "I make sure that people are treated fairly," and so on.

So when one of my kids, who idolized a kid with a SAHM, asked why I didn't stay home, I explained how I helped people. And then he wanted to know why they needed that help. And then he wanted to know what would happen if I didn't help them. And then he wanted to know why someone else couldn't help them. He was 5, possibly 6.

And he's now a responsible adult who minds his own business, but I am surprised when kids DON'T have a fistful of follow-up questions. They're supposed to be curious.

The answer to Richard Scarry's What Do People Do All Day? wasn't "Never you mind, nosy"

OP said he shamed his uncle. It's right there. That's not appropriate. And OP is mad she got called out for it. Oh well.

So every time someone feels shame, it’s someone else’s fault for “shaming” them?

If you care about a family member, yes you might consider their feelings. But op clearly doesn’t give a shit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're on a trajectory here and the awkward part is that you're midway on that trajectory.

Where you're coming from, what your brother is doing is treated as normal and only someone terrible would raise questions about it. As a result, you haven't discussed it directly in real terms at home (with your 7 yo or just within earshot) because you have no language to use in discussing it appropriately.

Where you're going to, you will understand that your brother has untreated mental illness and either make peace with your parents' refusal to deal with it or substantially distance yourself from them. As a result, you won't discuss it much at home because the answers will all be clear.

In the middle, where you are now, your brother is dysfunctional, your parents are in denial, you are angry about it, you may or may not be carping about it "in private" (that is: in your home, when your brother is not around and your kid may be). And your kid is sharp enough to notice all of this and asking questions.

My best advice to you is to do what you need to to get from A to B as fast as possible. Another generation of kid in your family being raised in that middle space where things are odd but no one knows or will say why isn't the outcome you want.

Your anger will be the biggest obstacle to fast progress here.

Feeling seen, thanks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're on a trajectory here and the awkward part is that you're midway on that trajectory.

Where you're coming from, what your brother is doing is treated as normal and only someone terrible would raise questions about it. As a result, you haven't discussed it directly in real terms at home (with your 7 yo or just within earshot) because you have no language to use in discussing it appropriately.

Where you're going to, you will understand that your brother has untreated mental illness and either make peace with your parents' refusal to deal with it or substantially distance yourself from them. As a result, you won't discuss it much at home because the answers will all be clear.

In the middle, where you are now, your brother is dysfunctional, your parents are in denial, you are angry about it, you may or may not be carping about it "in private" (that is: in your home, when your brother is not around and your kid may be). And your kid is sharp enough to notice all of this and asking questions.

My best advice to you is to do what you need to to get from A to B as fast as possible. Another generation of kid in your family being raised in that middle space where things are odd but no one knows or will say why isn't the outcome you want.

Your anger will be the biggest obstacle to fast progress here.

Feeling seen, thanks

Not OP

[Anonymous]

I think kids that age learn in history or social studies class about how the early settlers worked from dawn to dusk. I'd you didn't work, you didn't eat -- that what they learn.

Also in school teachers emphasize work and different jobs to learn vocabulary.

The child is too young to deliberately shame someone. I think he was just trying to make sense of how it could be that a grown man does not have a job, because otherwise, how would he get money? Would not occur to a child that the grandparents support an adult

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're on a trajectory here and the awkward part is that you're midway on that trajectory.

Where you're coming from, what your brother is doing is treated as normal and only someone terrible would raise questions about it. As a result, you haven't discussed it directly in real terms at home (with your 7 yo or just within earshot) because you have no language to use in discussing it appropriately.

Where you're going to, you will understand that your brother has untreated mental illness and either make peace with your parents' refusal to deal with it or substantially distance yourself from them. As a result, you won't discuss it much at home because the answers will all be clear.

In the middle, where you are now, your brother is dysfunctional, your parents are in denial, you are angry about it, you may or may not be carping about it "in private" (that is: in your home, when your brother is not around and your kid may be). And your kid is sharp enough to notice all of this and asking questions.

My best advice to you is to do what you need to to get from A to B as fast as possible. Another generation of kid in your family being raised in that middle space where things are odd but no one knows or will say why isn't the outcome you want.

Your anger will be the biggest obstacle to fast progress here.

NP thank you for this post. Very insightful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have a sibling that is non productive like this but I don’t find it odd that a 7 year old would know that most grown ups work - probably except for some parents that stay home to take care of their kids. Of course if a struck k the kid as confusing trying to understand what a grown adult without kids DOES for money if the answer is nothing.

Right. My guess is that OP obsessed about these topics at home, and loudly. Seven year olds DO listen and pick up everything, even when you think they don’t. Shame on you OP. You’re letting your family issues spill over to your children. Do better!

Do you know 7 years olds? They can fixate on something and not let it go. They are inquisitive and like to ask questions and try to understand things.

The fact people on here have an issue with a 7 year old asking questions but not with a 42 year old man who lives at home, doesn’t contribute, no job, and has no known medical or mental condition is frustrating to me.

Kids ask questions. He sees his uncle live with his grandparents and sit on the couch all day! My husband travels constantly all over the world for work. My nephew who is 7 asks him 10000000 questions about his job. My kid who is the same age tells his cousin it’s boring, but my nephew wants to know. Probably because it’s different from what he knows and is trying to understand it. Just like why my 7 year old asks me why we can’t live by his cousins and my in laws (for our work).

My twin sister is not married or have a partner or kids and my child asked her once why she wasn’t married and didn’t have kids. I don’t talk about her like that she has a great life! She proudly stated not everyone wants to be married and not everyone wants to have kids and she loves my kids but she doesn’t want kids and she likes living alone. Then he asked her if she was ever lonely. She said she had been. Afterwards I apologized to her but she said no apology needed and that kids are curious and she is happy my kids can see other ways people can live their lives. But she has a job and owns a condo. I’m sure if she didn’t have a job my kid would also ask her why she didn’t work…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If this isn’t fake, the idea of a 7-year-old grilling his uncle about what he does all day seems really inorganic. Kids don’t sit around thinking about this shit.

Said by a childless person. One of my kids is like Young Sheldon and he asks questions like this all the time. He’s trying to figure out the world around him. It’s not that uncommon.

I’m childless and my nephews ask the wildest questions sometimes. They don’t come out and ask the deeper questions but it usually starts like

“aunt Mary, why don’t you have kids” and goes from there.

same! "aunt suzie, do you hope for children?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What exactly do your parents want your son to apologize for? He’s 7 years old. They are inquisitive and insistent and all little budding attorneys. Your brother should have had some way to explain himself and the way he is living his life. Maybe as a PP said, you can tell your brother you’re sorry he was uncomfortable. Your son doesn’t need to say anything.

But OP, what do your parents expect to happen when they die? Do they expect you to take over in looking after your brother? Are they going to set up a trust for him, assuming they’ll have assets they can leave for him so he doesn’t blow through everything. If you haven’t had that discussion with them, you should. And if he hasn’t gotten any mental health assessments, he should.

The idea that your brother brought over his dirty laundry for you to do is just mind-blowing.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. Your son did nothing wrong.
2. You were right to put a stop to the interrogation. You did nothing wrong.
3. You were right to say what you did to your parents. You did nothing wrong.

Most people like your brother have undiagnosed, untreated, mental health disorders. They are too old to change much, unfortunately. The most common disorder is autism, which comes with all sorts of executive function issues, mental rigidity, social anxiety and OCD. Usually it's one of the latter symptoms that people see. ADHD and anxiety can be medicated, but autism needs to be addressed behaviorally from a young age, because there's no medication and you can only build social skills and life habits, not change the underlying neurodivergence. If your brother is also tired, maybe he has a physical condition, such as sleep apnea. He should consult his doctor, if he can be persuaded to do so.

YOur 7 year old did nothing wrong. Your brother needs to stop being butt hurt about what a 7 year old says, and maybe actually listen to the 7 yr old. Kids will call it as they see it. Hmmmm, my parents are adults and they work, why doesnt my uncle? It's not that hard.

If the brother has mental health issues, your parents aren't doing any favors to him by not stepping in and doing something about it. All they are doing is perpetuating the fragility and when your parents are gone, guess who will be expected to fix it? You. And noone is going to have the capacity to hear "i told you so" from you, even though you are right

OP, and you, have no idea what their dynamic is or what they are doing to help their son. Yes, some parents are enabling and allow adult children to mooch off them. Others are working privately to encourage therapy or medication (potentially meeting resistance, so a work in progress) or gaining government assistance etc etc. The issue here is that OP is completely disconnected from her brother by her own admission so she doesn’t really know. All she knows is that he gets financial assistance from her parents and doesn’t work.

He came over her house in multiple
Occasions with dirty laundry assuming she would do it for him! What are the parents doing exactly? He’s 42, he can do his own laundry and having that example to kids is awful!

[Anonymous]

OP, you are going to have much bigger problems when your parents are gone. What is the plan then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Often people like this are mentally ill AND they have dysfunctional, overprotective parents. Their parents watch them struggle so much growing up or in young adulthood and they don’t know what to do or how to help, and they usually end up enabling or making the child feel even more helpless. I’ve seen this dynamic in my own family and it is frustrating and a little heartbreaking. 💔

Just be the bigger person Op and try to have some compassion.

Nope. The family knows how to get help. This is not the 1920s. They actively chose not to get help and keep it a big secret. It is one thing for the parents to explain to OP that her brother has struggled since childhood and has tried therapies and meds and is considered a very complex case and then OP can figure out how to share with kids so they are compassionate. It's another thing to NOT get your child help all these years or to do it in secret and gaslight the family and insist all is normal and there is nothing going on and dump the brother on OP without any explanation that there is a serious mental health issue. There is SHAME in having a struggling child and not getting help for that child and thinking you can dump the problem on your other children. OPs parents can even set up boundaries now with the brother and they can get their own therapy for ideas on how to have boundaries and what to say to other adult children about the situation.

How do you force an adult to get help? Have you any experience with this?

You get them help as a child. Once you have an adult you get your own professional help to figure out what boundaries to set. If you let someone live rent free, you have parameters they are capable of with whatever disability. Chores in the house. Trying out several therapists and choosing one. Getting a psychiatric evaluation. As far as we know this family did NOTHING all these years. If they did try to get help, then work with a therapist to figure out how to share his issues with OP so it isn't, this whole pretending nothing is wrong. The fact the mom sends an adult son with loads of laundry to OP and things OP is going to accommodate that is insane. He clearly isn't physically disabled. An intellectually disabled person can do laundry. A mentally ill person can do laundry. If there is some issue that keeps him from being able to do his own darn laundry, it needs to be shared.

How does this help OP?

Read the thread. It was in answer to a question that was asked on the thread.

This is not OPs problem. She needs to just not get drawn into the dramatics. Just simply say that she shut it down and it was not asked in a malicious way. This is her parents not dealing with their son and not wanting to face reality.

I did read. Which is why PPs advice is useless. Shoulda, coulda, woulda with uncle back when he was a child. He's an adult now. All OP can do is set boundaries for herself. Not insist her brother or her parents do this, do that, make rules, insist on change. Whatever. Not her problem. She can limit decide who is welcome at her house or not and shut down any conversation about her brother when talking to her parents. I know, I've been there.

This thread is like a group therapy session. Been there (am there) as well. It takes a lot of strength to not enter into family dysfunction on that level, and to stay highly functional for our own children and lives. Huge hugs to all in the same situation.

Seriously, can we all meet up at the park or something?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're on a trajectory here and the awkward part is that you're midway on that trajectory.

Where you're coming from, what your brother is doing is treated as normal and only someone terrible would raise questions about it. As a result, you haven't discussed it directly in real terms at home (with your 7 yo or just within earshot) because you have no language to use in discussing it appropriately.

Where you're going to, you will understand that your brother has untreated mental illness and either make peace with your parents' refusal to deal with it or substantially distance yourself from them. As a result, you won't discuss it much at home because the answers will all be clear.

In the middle, where you are now, your brother is dysfunctional, your parents are in denial, you are angry about it, you may or may not be carping about it "in private" (that is: in your home, when your brother is not around and your kid may be). And your kid is sharp enough to notice all of this and asking questions.

My best advice to you is to do what you need to to get from A to B as fast as possible. Another generation of kid in your family being raised in that middle space where things are odd but no one knows or will say why isn't the outcome you want.

Your anger will be the biggest obstacle to fast progress here.

NP thank you for this post. Very insightful.

DP--thank you for this. We are in therapy with our child right now to help her process my sibling's wrecklessness and why we can't see them much anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What exactly do your parents want your son to apologize for? He’s 7 years old. They are inquisitive and insistent and all little budding attorneys. Your brother should have had some way to explain himself and the way he is living his life. Maybe as a PP said, you can tell your brother you’re sorry he was uncomfortable. Your son doesn’t need to say anything.

But OP, what do your parents expect to happen when they die? Do they expect you to take over in looking after your brother? Are they going to set up a trust for him, assuming they’ll have assets they can leave for him so he doesn’t blow through everything. If you haven’t had that discussion with them, you should. And if he hasn’t gotten any mental health assessments, he should.

The idea that your brother brought over his dirty laundry for you to do is just mind-blowing.

+1000

Yup exactly. My sister had 5 kids and we all had to glorify her for not having a full time job. That was somewhat okay when the kids were little, but one day the kids were no longer kids, yet she continued to stay home and we all were supposed to praise her for this. Meanwhile her husband got very ill and they had to move into a shack and now she's miserable....but it never occured to her to get a job. And we still have to justify her refusal to get a job.