Advanced middle school math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

Yup. School acceleration by itself isn't going to do it because the school curriculum just isn't geared towards this level of competition. My kid is friends with one of the 4 mathcounts kids in our state who went to nationals. That kid is doing AoPS years beyond what they are covering in their math class at school, even though they are grade skipped in math at school. Attending math class at school is just a formality for these kids. And in addition to studying more advanced math on their own, they are specifically working on speed in competition style problems. That kid is passionate about it too. My kid is also grade skipped in math by a couple of years, but there is no way she could compete at that level without competition-specific training on top of acceleration.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

This subthread started with a claim that you have to be in algebra 1 by 5th grade or sooner to do well. At least one of the national qualifiers from Virginia did not do that, and was mostly self study, though did take some AOPS classes like Number Theory.

Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

The subthread claim is that a kid can't make it to nationals in a competitive state without at least Algebra II or possibly pre-calc knowledge. This is correct. Competitive states have cutoffs near 40, meaning that the kid would need to get most of the later sprint round questions correct and almost all of the targets correct. VA was somehow not at all a competitive state this year, but usually the cutoff is much higher. Maryland had a cutoff of 40. No matter how you slice it, a lot of kids are quite accelerated, acceleration and outside classes help in these contests, and you have to be one of the top 4 kids in the state to make it. It is a zero sum game, and the kid relying mostly on mildly accelerated school math classes as well as their middle school math coach don't really stand a chance against the kids who have taken a lot of outside classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

But they're not doable with just an Algebra I knowledge base. Quadratic functions are one of the later things taught in algebra I, and so many competition problems go far beyond that.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

As for competitive state vs noncompetitive, this is a Virginia forum, maybe MD, and the original statement was you need to be super advanced to do well. Well it is clearly not the case in Virginia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

But they're not doable with just an Algebra I knowledge base. Quadratic functions are one of the later things taught in algebra I, and so many competition problems go far beyond that.

These were covered in math team practice. Of course just the algebra 1 knowledge base is not enough. The point is the kids can pick up a lot of extra stuff for contests without superaccelerating in school, and without replacement classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The subthread claim is that a kid can't make it to nationals in a competitive state without at least Algebra II or possibly pre-calc knowledge.

Perhaps this is a different thread but I remember jumping in when I saw a claim of you have to have 5th grade algebra or sooner if you want to make nationals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

I've spoken to parents of several of the students who did well at states, and even know the individual scoresheets of some of them. None are my kids.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

As for competitive state vs noncompetitive, this is a Virginia forum, maybe MD, and the original statement was you need to be super advanced to do well. Well it is clearly not the case in Virginia.

VA usually is a competitive state. They had an anomalously bad year this year. Generally, kids need to be super advanced in VA to be one of the top 4 kids in the state round. Most years, all of the VA nationals competitors are AIME qualifiers, and one or two are even JMO qualifiers.

It's pretty rare for kids to pick up so much geometry and Algebra II knowledge just from their middle school math club. They're clearly wasting their time in school math classes if they can more or less learn all of Geometry and Algebra II through their weekly(?) after school club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

I've spoken to parents of several of the students who did well at states, and even know the individual scoresheets of some of them. None are my kids.

Are you a mathcounts coach? If not, how on earth are you seeing the kids' scoresheets? Also, you're admitting that you have no idea whatsoever as to what classes the kids are taking outside of school. It's not like parents are advertising such things, and it's not like they're always completely honest. Considering that the vast majority of the NoVa area kids competing at State Mathcounts are Asian, it's nigh guaranteed that they're taking outside classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

As for competitive state vs noncompetitive, this is a Virginia forum, maybe MD, and the original statement was you need to be super advanced to do well. Well it is clearly not the case in Virginia.

VA usually is a competitive state. They had an anomalously bad year this year. Generally, kids need to be super advanced in VA to be one of the top 4 kids in the state round. Most years, all of the VA nationals competitors are AIME qualifiers, and one or two are even JMO qualifiers.

It's pretty rare for kids to pick up so much geometry and Algebra II knowledge just from their middle school math club. They're clearly wasting their time in school math classes if they can more or less learn all of Geometry and Algebra II through their weekly(?) after school club.

They are disconnected. The contest knowledge of algebra 2/geometry is a subset of the actual subject, and what is needed for contests is different topics.
Algebra 2 in MathCounts, is really just equations of circles and parabolas, which I didn't see this year, and some basic logarithms for interest rates.
My kid's algebra 2 class did cover sequences and series which surprised me.

I think everyone who made it from Virginia did qualify for AIME, but not sure. In some schools you have to pay money to take elsewhere. Another student in the state top 10 who was even closer to making nationals did not take AMC 10 or AMC 8, but had 20+ last year on AMC 8.

I don't know why you think parents would be hiding what classes kids are taking. I know some of the students, what classes they have taken. They did not take an outside geometry or alg 2 or precalc class as that would eventually be taught, but one took some contest math classes.

The coaches get scoresheets, and one coach shared with their students. Apparently another did not as one Virginia nationals qualifier did not know their score when the others did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

I've spoken to parents of several of the students who did well at states, and even know the individual scoresheets of some of them. None are my kids.

Are you a mathcounts coach? If not, how on earth are you seeing the kids' scoresheets? Also, you're admitting that you have no idea whatsoever as to what classes the kids are taking outside of school. It's not like parents are advertising such things, and it's not like they're always completely honest. Considering that the vast majority of the NoVa area kids competing at State Mathcounts are Asian, it's nigh guaranteed that they're taking outside classes.

Alcumus and MathCounts trainer cover a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

I've spoken to parents of several of the students who did well at states, and even know the individual scoresheets of some of them. None are my kids.

Are you a mathcounts coach? If not, how on earth are you seeing the kids' scoresheets? Also, you're admitting that you have no idea whatsoever as to what classes the kids are taking outside of school. It's not like parents are advertising such things, and it's not like they're always completely honest. Considering that the vast majority of the NoVa area kids competing at State Mathcounts are Asian, it's nigh guaranteed that they're taking outside classes.

Alcumus and MathCounts trainer cover a lot.

Kids who can get disjointed pieces of math through Alcumus and Mathcounts trainer and then master all of the content (which spans far beyond school Geometry and Algebra II) by reading the solutions are far from the norm. If such a kid even exists, the kid is also not being served well at all by this approach. If they had real classes and didn't have to teach themselves in a very ad hoc way, the kids who "almost made nats" would be making nats countdown round instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: through their weekly(?) after school club.

I would assume Longfellow does a lot of practicing to put so many people at the top every year, but the school I am most familiar with had 2 hour practices weekly, and twice a week once they picked the chapter team in January.
Another school that had a top competitor at state, arguably better than some who did qualify, used to have a lot of practices with students required to do 150 oplet questions weekly, but the school started having teachers do the practices, and is not as rigorous now.
A lot of the practice probably happens in elementary school, with people competing for Math Olympiad and MathLeague(.org). The other school has a feeder elementary with a strong math club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

I've spoken to parents of several of the students who did well at states, and even know the individual scoresheets of some of them. None are my kids.

Are you a mathcounts coach? If not, how on earth are you seeing the kids' scoresheets? Also, you're admitting that you have no idea whatsoever as to what classes the kids are taking outside of school. It's not like parents are advertising such things, and it's not like they're always completely honest. Considering that the vast majority of the NoVa area kids competing at State Mathcounts are Asian, it's nigh guaranteed that they're taking outside classes.

Alcumus and MathCounts trainer cover a lot.

Kids who can get disjointed pieces of math through Alcumus and Mathcounts trainer and then master all of the content (which spans far beyond school Geometry and Algebra II) by reading the solutions are far from the norm. If such a kid even exists, the kid is also not being served well at all by this approach. If they had real classes and didn't have to teach themselves in a very ad hoc way, the kids who "almost made nats" would be making nats countdown round instead.

It's not even clear this kid did those things. Another student who ranked higher did do the alcumus. Here is far from the norm. Someone who was within a few points of qualifying for nationals from Virginia scored below 30 on the school round, just doing lots of work after the chapter contest.