Advanced middle school math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

My kid is also grade skipped in math by a couple of years

Outside of regular AAP math, how did she accelerate beyond that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: through their weekly(?) after school club.

but the school started having teachers do the practices, and is not as rigorous now.

Who did the practices before?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

Pretty remarkable. The hard part about sprint 28 is getting there. I think this kid would have gotten the question if he had a few minutes. Similar questions were covered in practice, though not quite as hard as this one.
This student did get question 4. Apparently his coach was not able to do it while looking at it at states, just guessing it was a right angle, even though this coach had explained the specific concept to them several times about slopes and right angles.

Again, I'm amazed by this story. You're saying there is a 7th grader who is:
-taking school Algebra I and mostly self-studying contest math
-highly to profoundly gifted in math based on the ability to self study and the ability to be one of the top kids in the state in competitions
-presumably attending school in Ashburn (LCPS and either Eagle Ridge or Stone Hill MS)
-presumably Asian (Ashburn demographics)
-presumably wealthy(Ashburn demographics)
...but the parents haven't put the kid in outside math classes? I mean, basically every kid in Ashburn who is either Asian or wealthy is taking outside math classes, except apparently this one math genius, who is just self studying his way to Mathcounts Nationals.

Yeah. Totally plausible.

DP, but sometimes "self-study" means you're basically tackling courses on your own. Maybe this is what the PP meant. AoPS online, for example, which many of the math contest kids use, including my own daughter, is mostly self-driven and there is not that much support from a teacher, so maybe the PP doesn't count it as a "class." Whatever you call it, you still have to have the discipline to get through number theory, and counting and probability, in addition to covering algebra, geometry, trig, etc. I also find it wildly implausible that some kid only learned their math from algebra 1 at school and attended after school math club once or twice a week and learned all this material from those two sources alone.

Also, any other year, would have been in geometry in 6th grade

How? I'm not aware of any schools that offer algebra 1 in 5th or geometry in 6th

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

Pretty remarkable. The hard part about sprint 28 is getting there. I think this kid would have gotten the question if he had a few minutes. Similar questions were covered in practice, though not quite as hard as this one.
This student did get question 4. Apparently his coach was not able to do it while looking at it at states, just guessing it was a right angle, even though this coach had explained the specific concept to them several times about slopes and right angles.

Again, I'm amazed by this story. You're saying there is a 7th grader who is:
-taking school Algebra I and mostly self-studying contest math
-highly to profoundly gifted in math based on the ability to self study and the ability to be one of the top kids in the state in competitions
-presumably attending school in Ashburn (LCPS and either Eagle Ridge or Stone Hill MS)
-presumably Asian (Ashburn demographics)
-presumably wealthy(Ashburn demographics)
...but the parents haven't put the kid in outside math classes? I mean, basically every kid in Ashburn who is either Asian or wealthy is taking outside math classes, except apparently this one math genius, who is just self studying his way to Mathcounts Nationals.

Yeah. Totally plausible.

All of these are true, except for the part about every Asian kid in Ashburn taking outside math classes. I do get surprised by how many people go to Curie, but still not close to every kid. Particularly once you get to middle school, the RSM and similar things drops off a little.

A similar ability top student at his school also is not taking outside classes, and I suspect another one as well, as the parents weren't particularly bothered by the dropping of 6th grade algebra.

If the parents weren't particularly bothered, wouldn't that imply they were getting math education through another source?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^Forgot to add:
The types of kids who end up accelerated in math usually LOVE math. It's a travesty to take a kid's favorite school subject and turn it into a boring slog. It also tends to make them dislike school as a whole.

I've found it's primarily ones with pushy, strive parents willing to pay $$$ for outside enrichment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

My kid is also grade skipped in math by a couple of years

Outside of regular AAP math, how did she accelerate beyond that?

We are in MD not VA. It is unusual but not impossible to get grade accelerated in a subject area if you request it and they test very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: through their weekly(?) after school club.

but the school started having teachers do the practices, and is not as rigorous now.

Who did the practices before?

There was a coach that handled teams for two schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
How? I'm not aware of any schools that offer algebra 1 in 5th or geometry in 6th

I have heard Brambleton does it. There are certainly some students in Fairfax doing this.
However, I meant algebra in 6th and geometry in 7th. Due to VMPI, they changed their 5th grade testing from a test to get into algebra to a test to get into prealgebra.
After VMPI was dropped, with some parental pressure, now they offer IAAT for the top scorers on this to test into algebra, or they just offer it directly to the top scorers without IAAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

Pretty remarkable. The hard part about sprint 28 is getting there. I think this kid would have gotten the question if he had a few minutes. Similar questions were covered in practice, though not quite as hard as this one.
This student did get question 4. Apparently his coach was not able to do it while looking at it at states, just guessing it was a right angle, even though this coach had explained the specific concept to them several times about slopes and right angles.

Again, I'm amazed by this story. You're saying there is a 7th grader who is:
-taking school Algebra I and mostly self-studying contest math
-highly to profoundly gifted in math based on the ability to self study and the ability to be one of the top kids in the state in competitions
-presumably attending school in Ashburn (LCPS and either Eagle Ridge or Stone Hill MS)
-presumably Asian (Ashburn demographics)
-presumably wealthy(Ashburn demographics)
...but the parents haven't put the kid in outside math classes? I mean, basically every kid in Ashburn who is either Asian or wealthy is taking outside math classes, except apparently this one math genius, who is just self studying his way to Mathcounts Nationals.

Yeah. Totally plausible.

All of these are true, except for the part about every Asian kid in Ashburn taking outside math classes. I do get surprised by how many people go to Curie, but still not close to every kid. Particularly once you get to middle school, the RSM and similar things drops off a little.

A similar ability top student at his school also is not taking outside classes, and I suspect another one as well, as the parents weren't particularly bothered by the dropping of 6th grade algebra.

If the parents weren't particularly bothered, wouldn't that imply they were getting math education through another source?

More it is that parents without older kids who went through it are not as aware of what will be offered. Parents don't know what they don't know, so for many there was never an expectation of 6th grade algebra. I would not have been aware they were dropping it, if my older kid didn't have that option. In LCPS there is not much acceleration in elementary school, FUTURA, maybe some extra worksheets. No AAP or Level IV. There is awareness of TJ and AOS/AET more than what the math offerings will be in middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

#28 is clever algebraic manipulation. Definitely Algebra 1. I solved the main idea in my head, but needed to write notes to finish the calculation. It's complicated and hard,but doesn't require any knowledge beyond Algebra 1. Algebra 2 won't help at all. An average non-mathlete AP Calculus student would not be able to solve it. What will help is Mathcounts Trainer to see similar problems, or the Art of Problem Solving book.

#4 is definition and area of a circle, Pythagorean theorem, and angle dissection with congruent triangles angles . It's geometry, but the simple parts. AMC 10 and AIME have much harder Geometry. Public schools don't teqch it until Geometry class because the public middle schools stupidly separate algebra from geometry across separate years. (RSM Geometry is merged with PreAlg/Alg/Alg2 over 3 years). Beast Academy and AoPS free Prealgebra website teach this level, as does amctrivial.com. Again, the problem is complicated and hard, but not advanced. You don't need more theory to solve these problems, you need creativity or exposure to similar problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is this qualifier your kid? If not, how do you know what classes the kid has taken? It's not like people make a point of advertising every single AoPS course they've taken. Anyway, you just did prove the point that the kid isn't getting to nationals through school math + coaching. They're taking several AoPS classes to fill in the gaps.

I've spoken to parents of several of the students who did well at states, and even know the individual scoresheets of some of them. None are my kids.

Are you a mathcounts coach? If not, how on earth are you seeing the kids' scoresheets? Also, you're admitting that you have no idea whatsoever as to what classes the kids are taking outside of school. It's not like parents are advertising such things, and it's not like they're always completely honest. Considering that the vast majority of the NoVa area kids competing at State Mathcounts are Asian, it's nigh guaranteed that they're taking outside classes.

Alcumus and MathCounts trainer cover a lot.

Kids who can get disjointed pieces of math through Alcumus and Mathcounts trainer and then master all of the content (which spans far beyond school Geometry and Algebra II) by reading the solutions are far from the norm. If such a kid even exists, the kid is also not being served well at all by this approach. If they had real classes and didn't have to teach themselves in a very ad hoc way, the kids who "almost made nats" would be making nats countdown round instead.

Classes at the Art of PROBLEM Solving school are taught by going through problems like alcumus. Problem solving is a little bit of theory and a lot of practice, taking 10 basic ideas and combining them in thousands of different ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

Pretty remarkable. The hard part about sprint 28 is getting there. I think this kid would have gotten the question if he had a few minutes. Similar questions were covered in practice, though not quite as hard as this one.
This student did get question 4. Apparently his coach was not able to do it while looking at it at states, just guessing it was a right angle, even though this coach had explained the specific concept to them several times about slopes and right angles.

Again, I'm amazed by this story. You're saying there is a 7th grader who is:
-taking school Algebra I and mostly self-studying contest math
-highly to profoundly gifted in math based on the ability to self study and the ability to be one of the top kids in the state in competitions
-presumably attending school in Ashburn (LCPS and either Eagle Ridge or Stone Hill MS)
-presumably Asian (Ashburn demographics)
-presumably wealthy(Ashburn demographics)
...but the parents haven't put the kid in outside math classes? I mean, basically every kid in Ashburn who is either Asian or wealthy is taking outside math classes, except apparently this one math genius, who is just self studying his way to Mathcounts Nationals.

Yeah. Totally plausible.

DP, but sometimes "self-study" means you're basically tackling courses on your own. Maybe this is what the PP meant. AoPS online, for example, which many of the math contest kids use, including my own daughter, is mostly self-driven and there is not that much support from a teacher, so maybe the PP doesn't count it as a "class." Whatever you call it, you still have to have the discipline to get through number theory, and counting and probability, in addition to covering algebra, geometry, trig, etc. I also find it wildly implausible that some kid only learned their math from algebra 1 at school and attended after school math club once or twice a week and learned all this material from those two sources alone.

Also, any other year, would have been in geometry in 6th grade

How? I'm not aware of any schools that offer algebra 1 in 5th or geometry in 6th

It's only offered at a few wealthy schools where striver parents can pressure the admin for advantages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

Here's problem 28:
Suppose x and y are real numbers for which 2xy + 16 = x^2 and 2xy + 9 = 4y^2
If y > 0, what is the value of x + y? Express your answer as a decimal to the nearest tenth.

You really think that's doable for a kid in Algebra I?

All of the targets are doable? You really think a kid in Algebra I has any chance at all to solve #4?
https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2023%20State%20Competition%20Target%20Round.pdf

Any kids in Algebra I who can self-study and glean enough from their school club to solve problems like this are truly remarkable kids. It's far outside of the norm.

Pretty remarkable. The hard part about sprint 28 is getting there. I think this kid would have gotten the question if he had a few minutes. Similar questions were covered in practice, though not quite as hard as this one.
This student did get question 4. Apparently his coach was not able to do it while looking at it at states, just guessing it was a right angle, even though this coach had explained the specific concept to them several times about slopes and right angles.

Again, I'm amazed by this story. You're saying there is a 7th grader who is:
-taking school Algebra I and mostly self-studying contest math
-highly to profoundly gifted in math based on the ability to self study and the ability to be one of the top kids in the state in competitions
-presumably attending school in Ashburn (LCPS and either Eagle Ridge or Stone Hill MS)
-presumably Asian (Ashburn demographics)
-presumably wealthy(Ashburn demographics)
...but the parents haven't put the kid in outside math classes? I mean, basically every kid in Ashburn who is either Asian or wealthy is taking outside math classes, except apparently this one math genius, who is just self studying his way to Mathcounts Nationals.

Yeah. Totally plausible.

Mostly true except for RSM and Curie classes since age 6.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

My kid is also grade skipped in math by a couple of years

Outside of regular AAP math, how did she accelerate beyond that?

We are in MD not VA. It is unusual but not impossible to get grade accelerated in a subject area if you request it and they test very well.

What did testing "very well" look like in her case?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

My kid is also grade skipped in math by a couple of years

Outside of regular AAP math, how did she accelerate beyond that?

We are in MD not VA. It is unusual but not impossible to get grade accelerated in a subject area if you request it and they test very well.

What did testing "very well" look like in her case?

Since about the 3rd grade, her MAP scores have looked like the 99th percentile scores for 11th graders. We used that as evidence to request they promote. Also, they had her take their own test. I do not know the details, but it was some algebra readiness test) which she got a perfect score on.