Advanced middle school math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Supplementing in math 4 hours a week and expecting the school to accommodate is ridiculous

We don’t expect the school to accommodate. DS is in class at his grade level and we have not asked for him to be advanced.

That said, the Public schools are not set it to handle exceptional kids (and I don’t think my kid is exceptional) on either end of the spectrum. They are not great at helping kids with learning issues and they are not great at helping kids who are gifted. There are kids whose parents are supplementing because their child is legit bored at school. The schools don’t want to advance kids more quickly even when there is a kid who needs it. Should the parents of a gifted kid just let the kid twiddle their thumbs during school and learn nothing? Then people complain when the parents supplement so that the kid is actually challenged and has a chance to grow. It is a catch 22 and the kid is the one who is harmed by it.

Here is the point and we have gone round and round on this. Very few kids are actually gifted, like less than .01%. That's maybe one per grade even in a high IQ/SES region like this one. Those kids should be on alternative tracks than traditional public school.

For everyone else, the kids are just smart. There is no need or reason to accelerate in math. Again taking Algebra in 7th gives you 2 Calculus plus courses in high school which is more than enough. It is not a good idea to skip more than one core math component in college.

Actually the standard for gifted is typically lower than that. For general IQ the cutoff is usually 130 which is only the 98th percentile so 1% of kids are gifted. I imagine that in certain areas the percentage is higher because smart people cluster geographically. If you’re talking about math giftedness specifically the percentage will be lower because a very high verbal IQ score can bump an overall score to 130 even if they aren’t gifted in math, but I doubt it’s as low as .01.

I’m fine with 6th graders not taking Algebra but many have the capacity to do so. And actually this is true if they aren’t technically gifted. If somebody just really loves math, is above average intelligence, and has good executive functions skills they can handle an advanced math track.

I'm not fine with preventing 6th graders from taking Algebra when they have the capacity and desire to do so. Nothing is gained by forcing children to waste an hour of their day in a math class that is too remedial for them. If anything, they'll get turned off of math because the class is boring.

Okay maybe I shouldn’t say I’m fine with it, but I recognize that schools have limitations and offering a super accelerated math track might be more than they can expected to do. Public school cant offer every child their ideal education. Almost every time a school makes something better they have to take resources away from something else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Citation for this? I was actually present at 2022 Mathcounts Nationals and spoke with parents and coaches. And you were.....?
You're full of shit. The kids there are accelerated to the maximum level allowed by their school districts. Most areas are more willing to accelerate kids than FCPS is. That being said, even FCPS has maybe 10 kids per year taking pre-Calc and Calc in 8th. Kids would get nowhere in Mathcounts without knowing Algebra, Geometry, and even Algebra II (and number theory, and Counting and Probability, and other stuff outside of the regular math curriculum).

There is a difference between 8th grade precalc and 5th grade algebra. I would expect FCPS has even more than that in precalc. LCPS has individual schools with whole sections taking Algebra 2 w trig, though they don't let you take calculus right after that.

I've competed at nationals, no one on my team had algebra before7th grade. That was a while ago and the contest is tougher now(though the top student scored 12 points higher than 2nd place, and 20 higher than the 5th place kid who moved up to 1st.) Even this year, I know several kids in Virginia who nearly made nationals last year and thus a decent chance this year, none had algebra before 6th in school. I think you are giving too much weight to the kids you saw, and the majority are not taking algebra in 5th grade. There are a bunch of states where 30 score is enough to advance, and some even 20.

Your information is out of date. BothMathcounts and AMC 10/12 cranked up the difficulty in the last 5 years in a way that, for better or worse, favors more highly accelerated kids. There also are more schools permitting hyper acceleration than ever before.

You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be. A kid doing Algebra in 6th and then doubling up later is competitive. A kid stuck learning nothing in school but hyper accelerated at AoPS (like many FCPS kids) could be competitive. A kid who hasn’t even finished geometry would have no chance.

My observation was that every kid at Nationals fit into one of these categories. 1. Hyper accelerated at school. 2. Bored and wasting time in school math but hyper accelerated at AoPS. 3. Representing a weak, non competitive state.

Since we are on this topic (which is somewhat farther than OP's original question), many of the top 50 kids (and certainly most if not all of the countdown round qualifiers) are also USAMO/USAJMO qualifiers. No way they qualify and do well in those if they aren't hyperaccelerated at school (or they are homeschooled) or at AOPS. Indeed Mathcounts is approaching AMC-10 (Q1-15) in difficulty according to my kid (who made Nationals and JMO last year in 7th). School algebra 1/2 or even Geometry is just the beginning for these contests, especially if speed is paramount.

It seems like the parents who are able to get their schools to accelerate their children gives them an advantage in these contests and conversely children at schools that refuse to accelerate, regardless of merit, are at a disadvantage.

Many who take algebra 2 in 8th grade do poorly in these contests..

Are you seriously implying that it isn't a benefit? The algebra tested is algebra 2 or beyond. I don't know anyone who does well at high levels who hasn't learned algebra at that level, whether in school or on their own.
Acceleration might isn't sufficient, but it's mostly necessary. There's no excuse for blocking kids from their potential.

DP. I assumed that the PP meant that being accelerated isn't a golden ticket for doing well in these contests. Many accelerated kids still don't do well.
In my experience, acceleration is necessary, but not even close to being sufficient for doing well in AMC/AIME/Mathcounts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Supplementing in math 4 hours a week and expecting the school to accommodate is ridiculous

We don’t expect the school to accommodate. DS is in class at his grade level and we have not asked for him to be advanced.

That said, the Public schools are not set it to handle exceptional kids (and I don’t think my kid is exceptional) on either end of the spectrum. They are not great at helping kids with learning issues and they are not great at helping kids who are gifted. There are kids whose parents are supplementing because their child is legit bored at school. The schools don’t want to advance kids more quickly even when there is a kid who needs it. Should the parents of a gifted kid just let the kid twiddle their thumbs during school and learn nothing? Then people complain when the parents supplement so that the kid is actually challenged and has a chance to grow. It is a catch 22 and the kid is the one who is harmed by it.

Here is the point and we have gone round and round on this. Very few kids are actually gifted, like less than .01%. That's maybe one per grade even in a high IQ/SES region like this one. Those kids should be on alternative tracks than traditional public school.

For everyone else, the kids are just smart. There is no need or reason to accelerate in math. Again taking Algebra in 7th gives you 2 Calculus plus courses in high school which is more than enough. It is not a good idea to skip more than one core math component in college.

Actually the standard for gifted is typically lower than that. For general IQ the cutoff is usually 130 which is only the 98th percentile so 1% of kids are gifted. I imagine that in certain areas the percentage is higher because smart people cluster geographically. If you’re talking about math giftedness specifically the percentage will be lower because a very high verbal IQ score can bump an overall score to 130 even if they aren’t gifted in math, but I doubt it’s as low as .01.

I’m fine with 6th graders not taking Algebra but many have the capacity to do so. And actually this is true if they aren’t technically gifted. If somebody just really loves math, is above average intelligence, and has good executive functions skills they can handle an advanced math track.

I'm not fine with preventing 6th graders from taking Algebra when they have the capacity and desire to do so. Nothing is gained by forcing children to waste an hour of their day in a math class that is too remedial for them. If anything, they'll get turned off of math because the class is boring.

Okay maybe I shouldn’t say I’m fine with it, but I recognize that schools have limitations and offering a super accelerated math track might be more than they can expected to do.

There are many options that don't require dedicated tracking. For example, agreeing to give credit (and possibly paying for) for outside accredited classes like AoPS online, or something like EMF math, or letting kids take math at the middle/high school, or putting their money where their skills-based mouth is and grading students on the skills they demonstrate rather than the quantity of busywork they complete. Even something like ALEKS would beat most math classes for gifted kids

Even if none of that is an option, the parent could give the child enrichment work to do in class and all the teacher would have to do is allow the child to work on said enrichment once they've finished the classwork

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

This. JMO only takes around 300 kids. Likewise, AMO only takes around 300 kids. This is not 300 per grade level. It's 300 total who are 10th grade and below for JMO. Maybe 30-40 kids in the entire country qualify while still in middle school. It's an elite honor that is nearly impossible even with the concerted effort and extreme acceleration. A lot of people with math degrees would not be capable of solving the problems that these kids are solving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Citation for this? I was actually present at 2022 Mathcounts Nationals and spoke with parents and coaches. And you were.....?
You're full of shit. The kids there are accelerated to the maximum level allowed by their school districts. Most areas are more willing to accelerate kids than FCPS is. That being said, even FCPS has maybe 10 kids per year taking pre-Calc and Calc in 8th. Kids would get nowhere in Mathcounts without knowing Algebra, Geometry, and even Algebra II (and number theory, and Counting and Probability, and other stuff outside of the regular math curriculum).

There is a difference between 8th grade precalc and 5th grade algebra. I would expect FCPS has even more than that in precalc. LCPS has individual schools with whole sections taking Algebra 2 w trig, though they don't let you take calculus right after that.

I've competed at nationals, no one on my team had algebra before7th grade. That was a while ago and the contest is tougher now(though the top student scored 12 points higher than 2nd place, and 20 higher than the 5th place kid who moved up to 1st.) Even this year, I know several kids in Virginia who nearly made nationals last year and thus a decent chance this year, none had algebra before 6th in school. I think you are giving too much weight to the kids you saw, and the majority are not taking algebra in 5th grade. There are a bunch of states where 30 score is enough to advance, and some even 20.

Your information is out of date. BothMathcounts and AMC 10/12 cranked up the difficulty in the last 5 years in a way that, for better or worse, favors more highly accelerated kids. There also are more schools permitting hyper acceleration than ever before.

You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be. A kid doing Algebra in 6th and then doubling up later is competitive. A kid stuck learning nothing in school but hyper accelerated at AoPS (like many FCPS kids) could be competitive. A kid who hasn’t even finished geometry would have no chance.

My observation was that every kid at Nationals fit into one of these categories. 1. Hyper accelerated at school. 2. Bored and wasting time in school math but hyper accelerated at AoPS. 3. Representing a weak, non competitive state.

Since we are on this topic (which is somewhat farther than OP's original question), many of the top 50 kids (and certainly most if not all of the countdown round qualifiers) are also USAMO/USAJMO qualifiers. No way they qualify and do well in those if they aren't hyperaccelerated at school (or they are homeschooled) or at AOPS. Indeed Mathcounts is approaching AMC-10 (Q1-15) in difficulty according to my kid (who made Nationals and JMO last year in 7th). School algebra 1/2 or even Geometry is just the beginning for these contests, especially if speed is paramount.

It seems like the parents who are able to get their schools to accelerate their children gives them an advantage in these contests and conversely children at schools that refuse to accelerate, regardless of merit, are at a disadvantage.

Many who take algebra 2 in 8th grade do poorly in these contests..

Are you seriously implying that it isn't a benefit? The algebra tested is algebra 2 or beyond. I don't know anyone who does well at high levels who hasn't learned algebra at that level, whether in school or on their own.
Acceleration might isn't sufficient, but it's mostly necessary. There's no excuse for blocking kids from their potential.

DP. I assumed that the PP meant that being accelerated isn't a golden ticket for doing well in these contests. Many accelerated kids still don't do well.
In my experience, acceleration is necessary, but not even close to being sufficient for doing well in AMC/AIME/Mathcounts.

We're in agreement that it's necessary then. Or in other words, if a child with the talent is denied to opportunity for acceleration, they'll never be able to succeed at the highest levels.

[Anonymous]

And to add: the people this anti-acceleration-unless-the-parents-really-push attitude hurts the most are URMs and those who don't have this knowledge about the benefits of math competitions. Even poor parents who motivate their kids and scrounge up a $50 used AoPS book have a better shot than a parent who's completely in the dark. Without advocacy, even their genius kids will likely learn to hate math and play dumb to prevent painting a target on their back. It's very sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Supplementing in math 4 hours a week and expecting the school to accommodate is ridiculous

We don’t expect the school to accommodate. DS is in class at his grade level and we have not asked for him to be advanced.

That said, the Public schools are not set it to handle exceptional kids (and I don’t think my kid is exceptional) on either end of the spectrum. They are not great at helping kids with learning issues and they are not great at helping kids who are gifted. There are kids whose parents are supplementing because their child is legit bored at school. The schools don’t want to advance kids more quickly even when there is a kid who needs it. Should the parents of a gifted kid just let the kid twiddle their thumbs during school and learn nothing? Then people complain when the parents supplement so that the kid is actually challenged and has a chance to grow. It is a catch 22 and the kid is the one who is harmed by it.

Here is the point and we have gone round and round on this. Very few kids are actually gifted, like less than .01%. That's maybe one per grade even in a high IQ/SES region like this one. Those kids should be on alternative tracks than traditional public school.

For everyone else, the kids are just smart. There is no need or reason to accelerate in math. Again taking Algebra in 7th gives you 2 Calculus plus courses in high school which is more than enough. It is not a good idea to skip more than one core math component in college.

Actually the standard for gifted is typically lower than that. For general IQ the cutoff is usually 130 which is only the 98th percentile so 1% of kids are gifted. I imagine that in certain areas the percentage is higher because smart people cluster geographically. If you’re talking about math giftedness specifically the percentage will be lower because a very high verbal IQ score can bump an overall score to 130 even if they aren’t gifted in math, but I doubt it’s as low as .01.

I’m fine with 6th graders not taking Algebra but many have the capacity to do so. And actually this is true if they aren’t technically gifted. If somebody just really loves math, is above average intelligence, and has good executive functions skills they can handle an advanced math track.

I'm not fine with preventing 6th graders from taking Algebra when they have the capacity and desire to do so. Nothing is gained by forcing children to waste an hour of their day in a math class that is too remedial for them. If anything, they'll get turned off of math because the class is boring.

Okay maybe I shouldn’t say I’m fine with it, but I recognize that schools have limitations and offering a super accelerated math track might be more than they can expected to do. Public school cant offer every child their ideal education. Almost every time a school makes something better they have to take resources away from something else.

People aren't necessarily expecting the school to offer a super accelerated math track. They just want the school to exempt their kids from the non accelerated math track if their kid is already testing at levels beyond anything the school can reasonably offer. Schools could do this by expanding accreditation for outside math programs, and then letting the kids have a study hall during math period if they're taking an outside accredited class. Or they could allow for single subject homeschooling, once again giving a study hall during math class, but letting the parents submit a portfolio at the end of the year. For gifted kids, this would be a much better approach than maintaining rigid control over all kids the way FCPS does.

This should take fewer resources away from the school, since rather than needing to teach a student, they don't have to do anything other than provide light supervision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.

This. JMO only takes around 300 kids. Likewise, AMO only takes around 300 kids. This is not 300 per grade level. It's 300 total who are 10th grade and below for JMO. Maybe 30-40 kids in the entire country qualify while still in middle school. It's an elite honor that is nearly impossible even with the concerted effort and extreme acceleration. A lot of people with math degrees would not be capable of solving the problems that these kids are solving.

This. And then to do well in JMO/AMO requires a whole other set of skills that aren't taught (formally, at least) until college. These kids are mostly acquiring them through AoPS forums, OTIS etc. But the point is that these kids are already past most of the middle school curriculum (at least up to Alg2/pre-calculus). Schools/school systems should be willing to work with the kids and parents to lightly supervise them while they work with online offerings, or facilitate high-school level courses in middle school if applicable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

No way they are making it to AMO/JMO in middle school if they don't have a good foundation in Alg/Geo beyond school.

No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

FWIW, I was just at mathcounts nationals. Most of the kids from the decent states are hyperaccelerated in math. If they are not accelerated through school, then they are through classes taken outside of school. Many are also JMO qualifiers.

This was in Loudoun, which because of VMPI dropped 6th grade algebra 1. Any other year, this kid would have been taking geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Citation for this? I was actually present at 2022 Mathcounts Nationals and spoke with parents and coaches. And you were.....?
You're full of shit. The kids there are accelerated to the maximum level allowed by their school districts. Most areas are more willing to accelerate kids than FCPS is. That being said, even FCPS has maybe 10 kids per year taking pre-Calc and Calc in 8th. Kids would get nowhere in Mathcounts without knowing Algebra, Geometry, and even Algebra II (and number theory, and Counting and Probability, and other stuff outside of the regular math curriculum).

There is a difference between 8th grade precalc and 5th grade algebra. I would expect FCPS has even more than that in precalc. LCPS has individual schools with whole sections taking Algebra 2 w trig, though they don't let you take calculus right after that.

I've competed at nationals, no one on my team had algebra before7th grade. That was a while ago and the contest is tougher now(though the top student scored 12 points higher than 2nd place, and 20 higher than the 5th place kid who moved up to 1st.) Even this year, I know several kids in Virginia who nearly made nationals last year and thus a decent chance this year, none had algebra before 6th in school. I think you are giving too much weight to the kids you saw, and the majority are not taking algebra in 5th grade. There are a bunch of states where 30 score is enough to advance, and some even 20.

Your information is out of date. BothMathcounts and AMC 10/12 cranked up the difficulty in the last 5 years in a way that, for better or worse, favors more highly accelerated kids. There also are more schools permitting hyper acceleration than ever before.

You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be. A kid doing Algebra in 6th and then doubling up later is competitive. A kid stuck learning nothing in school but hyper accelerated at AoPS (like many FCPS kids) could be competitive. A kid who hasn’t even finished geometry would have no chance.

My observation was that every kid at Nationals fit into one of these categories. 1. Hyper accelerated at school. 2. Bored and wasting time in school math but hyper accelerated at AoPS. 3. Representing a weak, non competitive state.

Since we are on this topic (which is somewhat farther than OP's original question), many of the top 50 kids (and certainly most if not all of the countdown round qualifiers) are also USAMO/USAJMO qualifiers. No way they qualify and do well in those if they aren't hyperaccelerated at school (or they are homeschooled) or at AOPS. Indeed Mathcounts is approaching AMC-10 (Q1-15) in difficulty according to my kid (who made Nationals and JMO last year in 7th). School algebra 1/2 or even Geometry is just the beginning for these contests, especially if speed is paramount.

It seems like the parents who are able to get their schools to accelerate their children gives them an advantage in these contests and conversely children at schools that refuse to accelerate, regardless of merit, are at a disadvantage.

Many who take algebra 2 in 8th grade do poorly in these contests..

Are you seriously implying that it isn't a benefit? The algebra tested is algebra 2 or beyond. I don't know anyone who does well at high levels who hasn't learned algebra at that level, whether in school or on their own.
Acceleration might isn't sufficient, but it's mostly necessary. There's no excuse for blocking kids from their potential.

I'm not arguing for blocking anyone. Just pointing out that a lot of the kids who take algebra 2 still do poorly. Probably better than the kids who don't take it, but we are talking about scores below 20 at chapter round mathcounts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

You don't have to be a math prodigy for 30+. Take a look at the state round. It is easy to see how someone gets to 30+.

25 of the first 26 sprint and #28 are doable, as well as all the targets.
That would be a score of 42, leaving plenty of room to get 30+.
The geometry that is needed is largely picked up in practices or self study. ES Math Olympiad covers many of the geometry topics, though usually not circles like target #4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

I was told 34 by someone on the team, and the 2nd place student didn't know their score, or wasn't saying. If you are going off AOPS forum for the 35, I don't think that is complete. It really is 35 for everyone else who didn't make it, as the 4th place student had 4 target, so it would be pretty much impossible to beat that with a 34.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

VA cutoff was 34. The kid I know scored 29, and I don't rule out for some of the other kids- two 7th graders are going to nationals. This kid scored over 40 in chapter round. It's even closer than that, as a few questions he knew how to do at state he messed up that would have put him right in the mix for advancing.
Unfortunately Virginia was way down this year, so to qualify next year he would need to go much higher. There is a big difference between 35 and 40.

Sorry, but there's no way that a 29 should be viewed as an "almost made nats in a competitive state" score. It's truly a "made nats only in a very weak state" score. There's a huge difference between a 29 and 34 (although I think you're wrong on the cutoff. It was reported as a 35 to make nats with multiple scores over 40). My noncompetitive state had a nationals cutoff of 34, with a 29 not even making top 10. Also, at least one of the 7th graders from VA made JMO. And also, every single kid messed up a few problems that they could have gotten.

Thanks for proving my point, though, that it's pretty much impossible for a kid to come close to qualifying for nats in a competitive state with just school Algebra I and coaching.

This subthread started with a claim that you have to be in algebra 1 by 5th grade or sooner to do well. At least one of the national qualifiers from Virginia did not do that, and was mostly self study, though did take some AOPS classes like Number Theory.