Race and TJ admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did we get it all wrong? New TJ admissions process is an act of racism against Black and Latino students (not against Asians). How so? Read this excellent article:
Making the SAT and ACT Optional Is the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations https://nyti.ms/3IlxRwI

Admissions are race blind. The biggest issue is the criteria that they use though is easily prepped for and many wealthy families invest tens of thousands doing exactly that to game the system.

Same as in sports. Families spend tens of thousands for better coaching and I don't see anyone screaming unfairness

You know the saying - it is an eternal love if I do it and it is an immoral cheating if my neighbor does it.

Yep, most white kids are too lazy to prep (they'd rather do sports - which is a fine pursuit also) so when they can't get into TJ, their parents throw a tantrum and label the academically-focused asian kids cheaters for prepping. Yet, they don't see a problem with their kids prepping hours on end to make a sport team. Why? Because the latter prep benefits them while the former doesn't. Then they get behind a half-cooked up admission plan citing that it gives the Black and Latino kids a chance at admission but the truth is that plan also helps their white kids get in.

This is such a dumb take. Kids who are 10, 11, 12 years old who are building their resume should not have to give up things like sports in order to feel they have a fair shot at admission to TJ. That’s an unhealthy attitude, not only physically but mentally. Ideas like this are why TJ has so many difficulties with mental health.

All of a sudden the progressives care about Asian kids' mental health.

You watch enough of them go south at TJ and you'd be a monster NOT to care about their mental health.

Yes, you hypocrite. It is monstrous to try to use this to further your agenda.

My agenda is to eliminate an admissions process that has a demonstrably negative impact on the mental health of students at an institution I care for deeply. Call me whatever name you want - I have the courage of my convictions to know that what I'm calling for is right.

Asians must make up:
- 20% of the school board;
- 20% of the top 100 administrative positions at FCPS;
- 20% of the county teachers;
- 20% of the county employees including the top 100 administrative positions;
- 20% of the County Board of Supervisors;
- 20% of the County Judges;
- 20% of County prosecutors;
- 20% of the County police officers;
- 70% of TJ teachers;
- Principal of TJ must be Asian;
- 20% of County Contracts and Grants;
- 20% of county public schools' sport teams
- 20% of county schools' clubs and organization (including SGAs) members and officers etc. e

That will certainly improve Mental Health of many Asians in the county.

STRONGLY disagree that it will help Asians to be funneled into Fairfax County government jobs.

But sure, keep copying and pasting this wherever you can. It just makes people who agree with you look stupid.

[Anonymous]

I am confused where this conversation is headed. The whole quota system at ANY level is stupid and discriminatory. The focus should be on how to bring everyone to the same level playing field, have a process that clearly recognizes the talent and not segregate people into different pools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am confused where this conversation is headed. The whole quota system at ANY level is stupid and discriminatory. The focus should be on how to bring everyone to the same level playing field, have a process that clearly recognizes the talent and not segregate people into different pools.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of constantly attacking Asians for over-representation and moving heaven and earth to rectify under-representation of blacks/Hispanics at TJ while completely ignoring even WORSE under-representation of Asians in all other key aspects of the County where Asians make up 20%.

[Anonymous]

This whole TJ thing became too much political and personal pride for some parents. Everyone wants representation for their respective groups. In my opinion, TJ should be dismantled and just offer some of the exclusive courses at base schools and let any kid choose these courses based on some pre-reqs and teacher recommendations. No more in-fighting and whoever is qualified and interested enough to take these courses can take them. This will serve better for everyone involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole TJ thing became too much political and personal pride for some parents. Everyone wants representation for their respective groups. In my opinion, TJ should be dismantled and just offer some of the exclusive courses at base schools and let any kid choose these courses based on some pre-reqs and teacher recommendations. No more in-fighting and whoever is qualified and interested enough to take these courses can take them. This will serve better for everyone involved.

Nah. Asians deserve and are entitled to 20% of everything. This is beyond TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole TJ thing became too much political and personal pride for some parents. Everyone wants representation for their respective groups. In my opinion, TJ should be dismantled and just offer some of the exclusive courses at base schools and let any kid choose these courses based on some pre-reqs and teacher recommendations. No more in-fighting and whoever is qualified and interested enough to take these courses can take them. This will serve better for everyone involved.

Given that TJ has certain equipment that can't easily be replicated at 24 other high schools, the twist would be to turn TJ into a full-time Academy site.

No student would attend TJ full-time; TJ would have less overhead because it wouldn't have to replicate the typical administrative staff or offer extra-curricular programs; TJ would only offer courses available only at TJ; and enrollment would be based purely on demand and satisfying any course pre-requisites, with a lottery for a particular course only if necessary to limit enrollment in a particular class.

That would be so much better than the current, incredibly contentious model.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole TJ thing became too much political and personal pride for some parents. Everyone wants representation for their respective groups. In my opinion, TJ should be dismantled and just offer some of the exclusive courses at base schools and let any kid choose these courses based on some pre-reqs and teacher recommendations. No more in-fighting and whoever is qualified and interested enough to take these courses can take them. This will serve better for everyone involved.

Given that TJ has certain equipment that can't easily be replicated at 24 other high schools, the twist would be to turn TJ into a full-time Academy site.

No student would attend TJ full-time; TJ would have less overhead because it wouldn't have to replicate the typical administrative staff or offer extra-curricular programs; TJ would only offer courses available only at TJ; and enrollment would be based purely on demand and satisfying any course pre-requisites, with a lottery for a particular course only if necessary to limit enrollment in a particular class.

That would be so much better than the current, incredibly contentious model.

Nah. TJ being the best high school in the country is a major draw for tech/professional/skilled workers for this area and adds significantly to the property value in the Fairfax county for TJ to go away. Too bad - get used to having merit based admissions at TJ for the foreseeable future.

[Anonymous]

From MIT's decision today:

"At the same time, standardized tests also help us identify academically prepared, socioeconomically disadvantaged students who could not otherwise demonstrate readiness⁠10 because they do not attend schools that offer advanced coursework, cannot afford expensive enrichment opportunities, cannot expect lengthy letters of recommendation from their overburdened teachers, or are otherwise hampered by educational inequalities.⁠11 By using the tests as a tool⁠12 in the service of our mission, we have helped improve the diversity of our undergraduate population⁠13 What it means to "improve diversity" is a complex question. As we say in our diversity statement: "How much diversity is necessary to achieve our goals? Every student should feel that ‘there are people like me here’ and ‘there are people different from me here.’ No student should feel isolated; all students should come into contact with members of other groups and experience them as colleagues with valuable ideas and insights." For our purposes here, by "improving diversity" we mean we work to improve the recruitment and enrollment of well-matched and academically prepared students from a range of under-represented populations, including students of color, low-income students, and students who will be the first generation in their family to go to college.. We also value the diversity contributed by our many ‘New Americans’: a majority of MIT students are either immigrants themselves, or the child of at least one immigrant parent, and we believe their experiences and perspectives enhance MIT as well.while student academic outcomes at MIT have gotten better,⁠14 too; our strategic and purposeful use of testing has been crucial to doing both simultaneously.⁠15"

Unlike our democrats on the school board, MIT based its decision on scientific analysis with data to back it up. Standardized tests help improving diversity. It's just the wrong type of diversity for FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did we get it all wrong? New TJ admissions process is an act of racism against Black and Latino students (not against Asians). How so? Read this excellent article:
Making the SAT and ACT Optional Is the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations https://nyti.ms/3IlxRwI

Admissions are race blind. The biggest issue is the criteria that they use though is easily prepped for and many wealthy families invest tens of thousands doing exactly that to game the system.

Same as in sports. Families spend tens of thousands for better coaching and I don't see anyone screaming unfairness

You know the saying - it is an eternal love if I do it and it is an immoral cheating if my neighbor does it.

Yep, most white kids are too lazy to prep (they'd rather do sports - which is a fine pursuit also) so when they can't get into TJ, their parents throw a tantrum and label the academically-focused asian kids cheaters for prepping. Yet, they don't see a problem with their kids prepping hours on end to make a sport team. Why? Because the latter prep benefits them while the former doesn't. Then they get behind a half-cooked up admission plan citing that it gives the Black and Latino kids a chance at admission but the truth is that plan also helps their white kids get in.

This is such a dumb take. Kids who are 10, 11, 12 years old who are building their resume should not have to give up things like sports in order to feel they have a fair shot at admission to TJ. That’s an unhealthy attitude, not only physically but mentally. Ideas like this are why TJ has so many difficulties with mental health.

All of a sudden the progressives care about Asian kids' mental health.

You watch enough of them go south at TJ and you'd be a monster NOT to care about their mental health.

Yes, you hypocrite. It is monstrous to try to use this to further your agenda.

My agenda is to eliminate an admissions process that has a demonstrably negative impact on the mental health of students at an institution I care for deeply. Call me whatever name you want - I have the courage of my convictions to know that what I'm calling for is right.

Asians must make up:
- 20% of the school board;
- 20% of the top 100 administrative positions at FCPS;
- 20% of the county teachers;
- 20% of the county employees including the top 100 administrative positions;
- 20% of the County Board of Supervisors;
- 20% of the County Judges;
- 20% of County prosecutors;
- 20% of the County police officers;
- 70% of TJ teachers;
- Principal of TJ must be Asian;
- 20% of County Contracts and Grants;
- 20% of county public schools' sport teams
- 20% of county schools' clubs and organization (including SGAs) members and officers etc. e

That will certainly improve Mental Health of many Asians in the county.

Make sure they account for 20% of traffic stops, 20% of criminal arrests, 20% of county jail inmates, and 20% of criminal investigation targets as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did we get it all wrong? New TJ admissions process is an act of racism against Black and Latino students (not against Asians). How so? Read this excellent article:
Making the SAT and ACT Optional Is the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations https://nyti.ms/3IlxRwI

Admissions are race blind. The biggest issue is the criteria that they use though is easily prepped for and many wealthy families invest tens of thousands doing exactly that to game the system.

Same as in sports. Families spend tens of thousands for better coaching and I don't see anyone screaming unfairness

You know the saying - it is an eternal love if I do it and it is an immoral cheating if my neighbor does it.

Yep, most white kids are too lazy to prep (they'd rather do sports - which is a fine pursuit also) so when they can't get into TJ, their parents throw a tantrum and label the academically-focused asian kids cheaters for prepping. Yet, they don't see a problem with their kids prepping hours on end to make a sport team. Why? Because the latter prep benefits them while the former doesn't. Then they get behind a half-cooked up admission plan citing that it gives the Black and Latino kids a chance at admission but the truth is that plan also helps their white kids get in.

This is such a dumb take. Kids who are 10, 11, 12 years old who are building their resume should not have to give up things like sports in order to feel they have a fair shot at admission to TJ. That’s an unhealthy attitude, not only physically but mentally. Ideas like this are why TJ has so many difficulties with mental health.

All of a sudden the progressives care about Asian kids' mental health.

You watch enough of them go south at TJ and you'd be a monster NOT to care about their mental health.

Yes, you hypocrite. It is monstrous to try to use this to further your agenda.

My agenda is to eliminate an admissions process that has a demonstrably negative impact on the mental health of students at an institution I care for deeply. Call me whatever name you want - I have the courage of my convictions to know that what I'm calling for is right.

Asians must make up:
- 20% of the school board;
- 20% of the top 100 administrative positions at FCPS;
- 20% of the county teachers;
- 20% of the county employees including the top 100 administrative positions;
- 20% of the County Board of Supervisors;
- 20% of the County Judges;
- 20% of County prosecutors;
- 20% of the County police officers;
- 70% of TJ teachers;
- Principal of TJ must be Asian;
- 20% of County Contracts and Grants;
- 20% of county public schools' sport teams
- 20% of county schools' clubs and organization (including SGAs) members and officers etc. e

That will certainly improve Mental Health of many Asians in the county.

Make sure they account for 20% of traffic stops, 20% of criminal arrests, 20% of county jail inmates, and 20% of criminal investigation targets as well.

Bad analogy. Those things depend upon the pool of people committing crimes ,and Asians don't even com close to 20%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did we get it all wrong? New TJ admissions process is an act of racism against Black and Latino students (not against Asians). How so? Read this excellent article:
Making the SAT and ACT Optional Is the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations https://nyti.ms/3IlxRwI

Admissions are race blind. The biggest issue is the criteria that they use though is easily prepped for and many wealthy families invest tens of thousands doing exactly that to game the system.

Same as in sports. Families spend tens of thousands for better coaching and I don't see anyone screaming unfairness

You know the saying - it is an eternal love if I do it and it is an immoral cheating if my neighbor does it.

Yep, most white kids are too lazy to prep (they'd rather do sports - which is a fine pursuit also) so when they can't get into TJ, their parents throw a tantrum and label the academically-focused asian kids cheaters for prepping. Yet, they don't see a problem with their kids prepping hours on end to make a sport team. Why? Because the latter prep benefits them while the former doesn't. Then they get behind a half-cooked up admission plan citing that it gives the Black and Latino kids a chance at admission but the truth is that plan also helps their white kids get in.

This is such a dumb take. Kids who are 10, 11, 12 years old who are building their resume should not have to give up things like sports in order to feel they have a fair shot at admission to TJ. That’s an unhealthy attitude, not only physically but mentally. Ideas like this are why TJ has so many difficulties with mental health.

No try again. Our asian kids do sports and have plenty of physical activities. Most of us are just not obsessed with sports in a competitive way and don't force them to practice for hours each day. I have seen parents screaming at their kids when they think that the latter are not performing to their abilities during sport practice and games. Can't imagine it would be mentally healthy for the kids either.

PP. We absolutely agree. In sports circles, we chastise the very parents you're talking about for creating the problems that exist in our culture. There is a line that exists in both areas, and I see sports parents crossing it just as frequently as I see music parents or academic parents or whatever crossing it.

But this forum and this thread are about Advanced Academic Programs, so the ridiculous over-prep parents who are doing everything in their power to make their child appear more talented than they are are the focus of the conversation here. We can talk about the jerk sports parents on the sports thread and I promise you I'll have plenty of thoughts for them there.

But why do you assume TJ parents are these jerk parents? I'm sure some are, but most aren't. I know in our case, I did nothing for my child to go to TJ. I never seriously considered it because we live so far and I thought it wouldn't be good for our family life, plus I thought my child would have a better chance at top colleges at our base school. There are many kids like this at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am confused where this conversation is headed. The whole quota system at ANY level is stupid and discriminatory. The focus should be on how to bring everyone to the same level playing field, have a process that clearly recognizes the talent and not segregate people into different pools.

Not to mention it's illegal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did we get it all wrong? New TJ admissions process is an act of racism against Black and Latino students (not against Asians). How so? Read this excellent article:
Making the SAT and ACT Optional Is the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations https://nyti.ms/3IlxRwI

Admissions are race blind. The biggest issue is the criteria that they use though is easily prepped for and many wealthy families invest tens of thousands doing exactly that to game the system.

Same as in sports. Families spend tens of thousands for better coaching and I don't see anyone screaming unfairness

You know the saying - it is an eternal love if I do it and it is an immoral cheating if my neighbor does it.

Yep, most white kids are too lazy to prep (they'd rather do sports - which is a fine pursuit also) so when they can't get into TJ, their parents throw a tantrum and label the academically-focused asian kids cheaters for prepping. Yet, they don't see a problem with their kids prepping hours on end to make a sport team. Why? Because the latter prep benefits them while the former doesn't. Then they get behind a half-cooked up admission plan citing that it gives the Black and Latino kids a chance at admission but the truth is that plan also helps their white kids get in.

This is such a dumb take. Kids who are 10, 11, 12 years old who are building their resume should not have to give up things like sports in order to feel they have a fair shot at admission to TJ. That’s an unhealthy attitude, not only physically but mentally. Ideas like this are why TJ has so many difficulties with mental health.

No try again. Our asian kids do sports and have plenty of physical activities. Most of us are just not obsessed with sports in a competitive way and don't force them to practice for hours each day. I have seen parents screaming at their kids when they think that the latter are not performing to their abilities during sport practice and games. Can't imagine it would be mentally healthy for the kids either.

PP. We absolutely agree. In sports circles, we chastise the very parents you're talking about for creating the problems that exist in our culture. There is a line that exists in both areas, and I see sports parents crossing it just as frequently as I see music parents or academic parents or whatever crossing it.

But this forum and this thread are about Advanced Academic Programs, so the ridiculous over-prep parents who are doing everything in their power to make their child appear more talented than they are are the focus of the conversation here. We can talk about the jerk sports parents on the sports thread and I promise you I'll have plenty of thoughts for them there.

But why do you assume TJ parents are these jerk parents? I'm sure some are, but most aren't. I know in our case, I did nothing for my child to go to TJ. I never seriously considered it because we live so far and I thought it wouldn't be good for our family life, plus I thought my child would have a better chance at top colleges at our base school. There are many kids like this at TJ.

It's an easy assumption to make when just one prep center lists 30% of those admitted as having attended their courses which cost thousands of dollars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am confused where this conversation is headed. The whole quota system at ANY level is stupid and discriminatory. The focus should be on how to bring everyone to the same level playing field, have a process that clearly recognizes the talent and not segregate people into different pools.

They've tried that for decades and it hasn't worked. Even assuming that it was possible, FCPS doesn't have anything approaching the budget that it would take to bring a kid with uneducated parents who don't care about education up to par with a kid whose parents hold graduate degrees and who expect their child to follow a similar path and know what boxes need to be checked along the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole TJ thing became too much political and personal pride for some parents. Everyone wants representation for their respective groups. In my opinion, TJ should be dismantled and just offer some of the exclusive courses at base schools and let any kid choose these courses based on some pre-reqs and teacher recommendations. No more in-fighting and whoever is qualified and interested enough to take these courses can take them. This will serve better for everyone involved.

Given that TJ has certain equipment that can't easily be replicated at 24 other high schools, the twist would be to turn TJ into a full-time Academy site.

No student would attend TJ full-time; TJ would have less overhead because it wouldn't have to replicate the typical administrative staff or offer extra-curricular programs; TJ would only offer courses available only at TJ; and enrollment would be based purely on demand and satisfying any course pre-requisites, with a lottery for a particular course only if necessary to limit enrollment in a particular class.

That would be so much better than the current, incredibly contentious model.

Nah. TJ being the best high school in the country is a major draw for tech/professional/skilled workers for this area and adds significantly to the property value in the Fairfax county for TJ to go away. Too bad - get used to having merit based admissions at TJ for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps, but that's mostly for foolish people who don't understand that ranking is meaningless. Even locally TJ consistently loses academic contests to other local jurisdictions.