Good/bad coaches - development and ethical behavior

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At U14, things get a bit more serious if you are doing travel. By u15, kids are either all in or they leave the sport or do lower level.

Is your team looking to become elite? If so and your kid is not on that page, you need to find a better team for your kid because remaining on the same team will only bring more problems.

BTW, I have never seen a boys or girls team with players who belittle. I have seen parents belittle players but not parents.

Christ, I see this all of the time. I tell my kids (both starters/fairly leadership types) to tell the badmouthers to knock the sh*t off. I tell them, look 'when a teammate f*cks up, they know it', they don't need other teammates yelling and trashing them during the game. A good leader tells them 'man, it's okay', and builds them up. Nobody plays better with an *sshole harping and yelling at them. I've been known to directly loudly compliment a player from the sidelines when an *sshole teammate loudly mouths off at them. It seems to snap them out of their sh*t behavior.

I have seen entire teams break down and start yelling at each other on the field. That's when you know your team has it in the bag.

^My kids are U13 and U16. In the very young ages, it's immaturity and not just being a d*ck--you can teach them then. In the older ages, they are just *ssholes who most likely learned it from the parents bad-mouthing their teammates or never heard 'no'.

Really, unless you are at the level of Michael Jordan---who demands you be his level--just shut the f*ck up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At U14, things get a bit more serious if you are doing travel. By u15, kids are either all in or they leave the sport or do lower level.

Is your team looking to become elite? If so and your kid is not on that page, you need to find a better team for your kid because remaining on the same team will only bring more problems.

BTW, I have never seen a boys or girls team with players who belittle. I have seen parents belittle players but not parents.

Christ, I see this all of the time. I tell my kids (both starters/fairly leadership types) to tell the badmouthers to knock the sh*t off. I tell them, look 'when a teammate f*cks up, they know it', they don't need other teammates yelling and trashing them during the game. A good leader tells them 'man, it's okay', and builds them up. Nobody plays better with an *sshole harping and yelling at them. I've been known to directly loudly compliment a player from the sidelines when an *sshole teammate loudly mouths off at them. It seems to snap them out of their sh*t behavior.

I have seen entire teams break down and start yelling at each other on the field. That's when you know your team has it in the bag.

^My kids are U13 and U16. In the very young ages, it's immaturity and not just being a d*ck--you can teach them then. In the older ages, they are just *ssholes who most likely learned it from the parents bad-mouthing their teammates or never heard 'no'.

Really, unless you are at the level of Michael Jordan---who demands you be his level--just shut the f*ck up.

Or you can just shut the f*ck up even if you are Michael Jordan and just be great.

[Anonymous]

elite teams, DD and I has seen the pass the ball to the italians more than once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been known to directly loudly compliment a player from the sidelines when an *sshole teammate loudly mouths off at them.

Ditto. I've said things like "You did the right thing <insert name here>" loudly. Unless the asshole really is an asshole (mostly they're not - just frustrated kids) - this usually has the effect of the frustrated kid apologizing and acknowledging he shouldn't have torn his teammate down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can you elaborate PP? This is OP. What is so out of the norm? I have only one child and child has only played for two years so I don't know what seems off and what is normal.

PP here.

Good coaches have players earn playing time but, while the better kids play more, they ensure that all kids play at least half the game. The only exception to this might come in a tournament final or a game which could decide a league title - and even then nobody would sit out entirely.

Allowing team mates to belittle each other is just bad coaching. Yes it happens occasionally even on well coached teams because kids get frustrated. But if there is a pattern of destructive behavior a good coach (or even a mediocre coach) steps in puts an end to it.

Sending teammates off to practise with a lower team seems odd to me. It is possible that some of the players are so weak that they are making it difficult for the better players to learn what the coach wants to teach. If that is the case then I sympathize with the coach somewhat - but the club is at fault - those players should not be on the same roster. And I think the coach should find a better way to handle his problem than this.

Allowing teammates to pass to the better players instead of the player in the best position is also really bad coaching. No kid benefits from this - not the kid learning to pass to a player in an inferior position, not the kid who learns that he will receive the ball without getting into the right position, and not the kid who gets into the right position and does not receive the ball.

And FWIW all of this remains true even at the highest level and older age groups. Contrary to what some people suggest - you are actually less likely to find these behaviors on elite teams - because - while the coach may believe he is behaving this way in order to try and win games - his behavior actually results in winning fewer games over anything but the extremely short run. The best teams at any level - do not do any of these things. Or if they do, they don't remain the best team for long.

[Anonymous]

My kid is U14 and the best kids get quite a bit more time than the middle and the alot more than than the weakest players during competitive games. If the game is very competitive, then the top kids only get subbed out for short breaks usually once a half. I don't see that as doing anything to win. I see it as letting the top kids compete when they have the opportunity. The weaker kids get more playing time when they play weaker teams.
I personally have a big problem with belittling. If I, as a parent, hear of it, I go to my kid and talk to him about how this behavior hurts the team and he needs to find a way to try to handle it whether it's he stand up to the bully or he goes to the captains or even the coach...and I monitor. If they are belittling him then it's a conversation about standing up for yourself. If the coach is belittling the players, then it's a conversation with me and the coach. As to practices...why the heck is your coach missing so many practices that this is an issue? If he's missing enough practices for this to be a problem, then that in itself is a problem that I would address with the team manager first and then the coach if necessary and then the club if necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is DC's second year on travel, same club, and DC is still young but not that young at U14. Big contrast between coach last year and this year. Both are good coaches when it comes to giving directions, having a mostly even temper and knowing the game. We are satisfied from that point but we've had some discussion about how the two coaches differ in team-building, morale and how they deal with individual players.

Last year, the coach made a lot of effort to make sure each player was valued and treated equally to a big extent. The best players started and played most of the game and the ones that were not as good played slightly less but there was a great sense that this was a team and wins were everyone's wins and losses were everyone's losses. Old coach did not tolerate any negative comments towards other players and if you said something you were automatically benched the next game.

The coach this year has a completely different approach and seems to have his favorites and seems to shun certain players. We were surprised he sent some of the less good players off to practice with a lower team a few times. That's not really promoting team bonding, and it sends a poor message to the rest of the players. Morale is horrible. The better players are allowed to insult the less good players with no consequence. The less good players presumably feel awful because we can see them at each game looking very dejected because they did not go in. The better players are sniping at each other too and one left the field in tears a few weeks ago after another one had an outburst directed at said tearful player.

This is normal team, not one of those elite teams.

DC, who has been in somewhere in the middle in terms of ability both years, is very upset by the whole thing. DC has no other activities right now other than soccer and used to really enjoy the team aspect of the sport and got along really well with the other players. Beyond the not very good ethical role modeling, it is impacting the soccer. The players don't pass the way they used to pass. They pass only to the "better" players instead of making the correct move which is to pass to the ones who are open and in the best position.

I get that different coaches have different styles and it's hard to find a coach that has everything but this is an emotional time for kids and we want him to be able to go to practice and feel good.

I don't even know if I have a question. Just not feeling great about this situation and not sure if anything can be done.

Certainly some bad things here, particularly the sniping and tears and outbursts. Coach should be shutting that down immediately and if he can't or won't, should be removed and replaced immediately. Kids are sometimes mean, and as adults we make mistakes, so I'm all for letting the coach handle and give them time to. But if not handling at all, then needs to go, that's unacceptable - they're a role model and mentor in every way. Should also be communicating with the team on some of the other changes.

The not passing to bad players is not great, but if the team is recognizing that skill difference, then those kids also need to make a move - play less, change teams, whatever. It's equally as frustrating for a good player to feel like they worked their tail off to make a play and another player sees a ball bounce off their feet and send the good player off sprinting somewhere else. That's why some level of parity is important.

When you say "favorites" above - are you implying the coach is denying similarly skilled players opportunity? Or are his favorites generally in line with who you would consider the strongest players? At the end of the day, favorites is a loaded term that implies the coach is picking their son or their favorite parents kid, as opposed to choosing an 8th grader based on their skill relative to their peers.

That said, I don't agree the rest are bad at that age. It's a different philosophy that should be communicated, but players practicing at the right level is important. Nobody gets better playing against a vast difference, and that's worse now with many teams choosing not to change rosters. It's hard and coach should be talking to players, but also communicating to parents how he's spoken to the team about the playing time philosophy or that he's trying to separate drills into skill levels so everyone can get something out of it. Groups should be separated just to get more touches on the ball for everyone and keep things moving anyway, and coach should work with all of them. There are any number of reasons players are mixed at that age - parent refuses to let them move to a better match team, there isn't a better matched team in that club, COVID impact of not playing for a while and wanting to keep teams together - none of which are the coaches fault (directly).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is DC's second year on travel, same club, and DC is still young but not that young at U14. Big contrast between coach last year and this year. Both are good coaches when it comes to giving directions, having a mostly even temper and knowing the game. We are satisfied from that point but we've had some discussion about how the two coaches differ in team-building, morale and how they deal with individual players.

Last year, the coach made a lot of effort to make sure each player was valued and treated equally to a big extent. The best players started and played most of the game and the ones that were not as good played slightly less but there was a great sense that this was a team and wins were everyone's wins and losses were everyone's losses. Old coach did not tolerate any negative comments towards other players and if you said something you were automatically benched the next game.

The coach this year has a completely different approach and seems to have his favorites and seems to shun certain players. We were surprised he sent some of the less good players off to practice with a lower team a few times. That's not really promoting team bonding, and it sends a poor message to the rest of the players. Morale is horrible. The better players are allowed to insult the less good players with no consequence. The less good players presumably feel awful because we can see them at each game looking very dejected because they did not go in. The better players are sniping at each other too and one left the field in tears a few weeks ago after another one had an outburst directed at said tearful player.

This is normal team, not one of those elite teams.

DC, who has been in somewhere in the middle in terms of ability both years, is very upset by the whole thing. DC has no other activities right now other than soccer and used to really enjoy the team aspect of the sport and got along really well with the other players. Beyond the not very good ethical role modeling, it is impacting the soccer. The players don't pass the way they used to pass. They pass only to the "better" players instead of making the correct move which is to pass to the ones who are open and in the best position.

I get that different coaches have different styles and it's hard to find a coach that has everything but this is an emotional time for kids and we want him to be able to go to practice and feel good.

I don't even know if I have a question. Just not feeling great about this situation and not sure if anything can be done.

What’s the name of club?
What’s the name of coach?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you elaborate PP? This is OP. What is so out of the norm? I have only one child and child has only played for two years so I don't know what seems off and what is normal.

PP here.

Good coaches have players earn playing time but, while the better kids play more, they ensure that all kids play at least half the game. The only exception to this might come in a tournament final or a game which could decide a league title - and even then nobody would sit out entirely.

Allowing team mates to belittle each other is just bad coaching. Yes it happens occasionally even on well coached teams because kids get frustrated. But if there is a pattern of destructive behavior a good coach (or even a mediocre coach) steps in puts an end to it.

Sending teammates off to practise with a lower team seems odd to me. It is possible that some of the players are so weak that they are making it difficult for the better players to learn what the coach wants to teach. If that is the case then I sympathize with the coach somewhat - but the club is at fault - those players should not be on the same roster. And I think the coach should find a better way to handle his problem than this.

Allowing teammates to pass to the better players instead of the player in the best position is also really bad coaching. No kid benefits from this - not the kid learning to pass to a player in an inferior position, not the kid who learns that he will receive the ball without getting into the right position, and not the kid who gets into the right position and does not receive the ball.

And FWIW all of this remains true even at the highest level and older age groups. Contrary to what some people suggest - you are actually less likely to find these behaviors on elite teams - because - while the coach may believe he is behaving this way in order to try and win games - his behavior actually results in winning fewer games over anything but the extremely short run. The best teams at any level - do not do any of these things. Or if they do, they don't remain the best team for long.

Listen, I'll be snarky for a minute - but it's really hard for both all players to play at least half the game AND for the best (or better) players play significantly more. Unless you have a relatively tiny roster (14 or less on an 11v11 team), there's going to be haves and have nots. I think that's important to make sure that spread happens at younger ages, but I think where folks draw the line of when that shift should happen is individual. Personally, I'd argue somewhere in the U12-U14 range is the right place.

That said - I totally agree with most of your points - including that it's the clubs problems that they've kept the wrong team members together. Lots of external pressures before it gets to the coach to arbitrate that (unless the coach rolled over and picked the team wo club pressure).

[Anonymous]

Coach here-

Some coaches aren't very good at the social aspect of coaching. I would say COVID has made this a little harder as there are less opportunities to hang out after the game or practice. Not making excuses, but this is definitely a hole in coaching education. Most coaches that are good at this just have the right personality - but there are certainly things that can be taught.

This might sound incredulous but there is a chance the coach isn't aware of some of the bad behavior. Players are often smart enough to keep the worst comments out of earshot (especially girls at this age). That being said if it's happening a lot, you can usually pick up on it.

Practicing with the "lower team" doesn't have to be a bad thing. I wish this wasn't always the perception when this happens. We have multiple teams in my age group and we'll often send a player or two up or down based on numbers and what coaches want to see.

Sometimes it's sort of a mini-tryout, sometimes it's just purely numbers. If it's being used a punishment, that's just awful.

Having said all that - talk to your coach about how your child feels and how you feel about it. If you don't like the response, take it up the chain. Still not happy? Plenty of clubs out there.

[Anonymous]

Listen, I'll be snarky for a minute - but it's really hard for both all players to play at least half the game AND for the best (or better) players play significantly more. Unless you have a relatively tiny roster (14 or less on an 11v11 team), there's going to be haves and have nots. I think that's important to make sure that spread happens at younger ages, but I think where folks draw the line of when that shift should happen is individual. Personally, I'd argue somewhere in the U12-U14 range is the right place.

This just isn't true.

My DS' U16 team has a roster of 18 on gamedays (20 total - but injuries have meant this has not yet caused anyone to sit out when healthy). That's two goal keepers and 16 field players. The goalkeepers play a half each - always. Games are 2x40 minutes so there are 800 minutes total available for the other sixteen players. This is usually shared so that 5-7 players receive about 60 minutes and the remaining 9-11 players receive about 40-45 minutes each. We have had one "important" game (out of probaby 15 or so games and scrimmages) so far this season and the only changes were that two of the players played the whole game, and two others received only about 25 minutes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you elaborate PP? This is OP. What is so out of the norm? I have only one child and child has only played for two years so I don't know what seems off and what is normal.

PP here.

Good coaches have players earn playing time but, while the better kids play more, they ensure that all kids play at least half the game. The only exception to this might come in a tournament final or a game which could decide a league title - and even then nobody would sit out entirely.

Allowing team mates to belittle each other is just bad coaching. Yes it happens occasionally even on well coached teams because kids get frustrated. But if there is a pattern of destructive behavior a good coach (or even a mediocre coach) steps in puts an end to it.

Sending teammates off to practise with a lower team seems odd to me. It is possible that some of the players are so weak that they are making it difficult for the better players to learn what the coach wants to teach. If that is the case then I sympathize with the coach somewhat - but the club is at fault - those players should not be on the same roster. And I think the coach should find a better way to handle his problem than this.

Allowing teammates to pass to the better players instead of the player in the best position is also really bad coaching. No kid benefits from this - not the kid learning to pass to a player in an inferior position, not the kid who learns that he will receive the ball without getting into the right position, and not the kid who gets into the right position and does not receive the ball.

And FWIW all of this remains true even at the highest level and older age groups. Contrary to what some people suggest - you are actually less likely to find these behaviors on elite teams - because - while the coach may believe he is behaving this way in order to try and win games - his behavior actually results in winning fewer games over anything but the extremely short run. The best teams at any level - do not do any of these things. Or if they do, they don't remain the best team for long.

Listen, I'll be snarky for a minute - but it's really hard for both all players to play at least half the game AND for the best (or better) players play significantly more. Unless you have a relatively tiny roster (14 or less on an 11v11 team), there's going to be haves and have nots. I think that's important to make sure that spread happens at younger ages, but I think where folks draw the line of when that shift should happen is individual. Personally, I'd argue somewhere in the U12-U14 range is the right place.

That said - I totally agree with most of your points - including that it's the clubs problems that they've kept the wrong team members together. Lots of external pressures before it gets to the coach to arbitrate that (unless the coach rolled over and picked the team wo club pressure).

The math works out that unless you have a really inflated roster of 16-17+ that you can have the top players play 3/4 to 4/4 of the game and have everyone play a minimum of 2/4 quarters. 2/4 versus 4/4 quarters is a big difference but I think that's fine but 1/4 or 0/4 is not okay. Crappy coaching if it happens regularly. if it's a championship tournament or league game, no one would argue with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Listen, I'll be snarky for a minute - but it's really hard for both all players to play at least half the game AND for the best (or better) players play significantly more. Unless you have a relatively tiny roster (14 or less on an 11v11 team), there's going to be haves and have nots. I think that's important to make sure that spread happens at younger ages, but I think where folks draw the line of when that shift should happen is individual. Personally, I'd argue somewhere in the U12-U14 range is the right place.

This just isn't true.

My DS' U16 team has a roster of 18 on gamedays (20 total - but injuries have meant this has not yet caused anyone to sit out when healthy). That's two goal keepers and 16 field players. The goalkeepers play a half each - always. Games are 2x40 minutes so there are 800 minutes total available for the other sixteen players. This is usually shared so that 5-7 players receive about 60 minutes and the remaining 9-11 players receive about 40-45 minutes each. We have had one "important" game (out of probaby 15 or so games and scrimmages) so far this season and the only changes were that two of the players played the whole game, and two others received only about 25 minutes.

+1
This can easily be done if the coach gives a s*@(. Some only care about winning and looking good to their club. It's not a way to develop players at this age and kids in this situation should demand their money back. I don't know of a big club director that would allow this at U14.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At U14, things get a bit more serious if you are doing travel. By u15, kids are either all in or they leave the sport or do lower level.

Is your team looking to become elite? If so and your kid is not on that page, you need to find a better team for your kid because remaining on the same team will only bring more problems.

BTW, I have never seen a boys or girls team with players who belittle. I have seen parents belittle players but not parents.

Christ, I see this all of the time. I tell my kids (both starters/fairly leadership types) to tell the badmouthers to knock the sh*t off. I tell them, look 'when a teammate f*cks up, they know it', they don't need other teammates yelling and trashing them during the game. A good leader tells them 'man, it's okay', and builds them up. Nobody plays better with an *sshole harping and yelling at them. I've been known to directly loudly compliment a player from the sidelines when an *sshole teammate loudly mouths off at them. It seems to snap them out of their sh*t behavior.

I have seen entire teams break down and start yelling at each other on the field. That's when you know your team has it in the bag.

^My kids are U13 and U16. In the very young ages, it's immaturity and not just being a d*ck--you can teach them then. In the older ages, they are just *ssholes who most likely learned it from the parents bad-mouthing their teammates or never heard 'no'.

Really, unless you are at the level of Michael Jordan---who demands you be his level--just shut the f*ck up.

Thank you. You should know this really does help the kids!! As the parent of a child whose teammate was saying mean things to everyone recently DC appreciated the parents who spoke out and cheered everyone on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Listen, I'll be snarky for a minute - but it's really hard for both all players to play at least half the game AND for the best (or better) players play significantly more. Unless you have a relatively tiny roster (14 or less on an 11v11 team), there's going to be haves and have nots. I think that's important to make sure that spread happens at younger ages, but I think where folks draw the line of when that shift should happen is individual. Personally, I'd argue somewhere in the U12-U14 range is the right place.

This just isn't true.

My DS' U16 team has a roster of 18 on gamedays (20 total - but injuries have meant this has not yet caused anyone to sit out when healthy). That's two goal keepers and 16 field players. The goalkeepers play a half each - always. Games are 2x40 minutes so there are 800 minutes total available for the other sixteen players. This is usually shared so that 5-7 players receive about 60 minutes and the remaining 9-11 players receive about 40-45 minutes each. We have had one "important" game (out of probaby 15 or so games and scrimmages) so far this season and the only changes were that two of the players played the whole game, and two others received only about 25 minutes.

+1
This can easily be done if the coach gives a s*@(. Some only care about winning and looking good to their club. It's not a way to develop players at this age and kids in this situation should demand their money back. I don't know of a big club director that would allow this at U14.

Or at any age.

Arlington is arguably the top boys club in the DMV (and if you think BSC is the top club that's fine - I'm not picking a fight about that - the point is that Arlington's top teams are extremely successful). On their top teams - right up to U19 - every kid plays at least half the game in 90% or more of the games they play.