Is this problem too hard for a second grader?

[Anonymous]

It works for some kids, and is an abysmal failure for many others, who need the concrete before the abstract.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, and I still have no answer. I thought the problem type itself was OK, but not with such a high number. Are other parents seeing their kids working with this type of problem with such a high number?

Yes. They teach math using a base-ten system, and hundred is key to that.

Also, kids who embrace this will soon find it empowering to work with bigger numbers. They're working towards realizing it's all the same -- whether they're working with small numbers or big numbers. The process is the same and they're smart enough to work it out no matter what size the numbers are.

Yes, right now, they're doing it the long, tedious way (drawing all the circles to see 100). But soon enough they'll be grouping or otherwise playing with the numbers so it can all be done quickly.

A few ideas for this stage:

-- Remind your child to draw the picture with VERY simple shapes. No details for the apples or candy or whatever. Use the most simple circles. They should be telling her the same in school. (Again, the visual aid is very helpful to some kids -- drawing and seeing the objects helps them understand 100 as a concept, and not just a number/word.)

-- Show her how to draw the little circles in groups of ten so she can keep track. Ten groups of ten circles. Quick. Easy. Again, they should be teaching this at school. It's a base-ten system.

-- Once she's done with the homework, take two minutes to PLAY with the problem with her. Show her how there are other ways to figure it out, too. Show her that math is a PUZZLE and a GAME. Not a chore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, and I still have no answer. I thought the problem type itself was OK, but not with such a high number. Are other parents seeing their kids working with this type of problem with such a high number?

Yes. This problem is not too hard. I don't know why you are so stuck on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It works for some kids, and is an abysmal failure for many others, who need the concrete before the abstract.

But they DO teach it in a concrete way first. The kids work with manipulatives and physical objects for years. It starts in preschool and kindergarten.

For example, taking a set of 10 jelly beans and working with a partner to divide them in half to they each have the same amount and then counting to discover what that number is.

Or each kid bringing in 100 of something (M&Ms or jolly ranchers etc.) to kindergarten so they can each spread them out on their desk and group them into various piles per the teacher's instruction (I happened to be a volunteer in DC's kindergarten class one of the days they did this. I think the unit lasted a week.)

Or the class sorting themselves into groups each morning based on a question (Again, a real-life example from my DC's kindergarten class: Who had a hot breakfast this morning? Who had a cold breakfast this morning? Sometimes the kids sorted themselves physically on the rug. Sometimes they did it by moving their name magnets into one of two columns. Either way, they then tallyed it up together as a class and and talked about it as an addition equation (8 "Yes" plus 12 "no" equals 20)).

To me, this is a concrete as it gets. This is experiential learning to help the kids both understand and practice math facts. Again and again and again.

[Anonymous]

We went to a presentation at my son's school about the math curriculum. Part of the curriculum is for them to struggle. They DO have the tools they need; they just need to figure out how to use them.

So, she should have learned in class, for example, to draw 25 boxes or people, and then start doling out the candy. She might have learned it with a smaller number, like 10, and now she's supposed to figure out how to scale it up to 100.

I will say that my impression was that the presenter was an extraordinary teacher, and that without very patient, very good teachers, the children would not necessarily learn to be as self-sufficient as the curriculum intends them to be.

I love the new math. I'm a mathematician, and the way they teach now basically teaches children all the mental "tricks" I've always used to manipulate large numbers in my head. It's a way of learning to make numbers do what you want them to do, however large or complex they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here, and I still have no answer. I thought the problem type itself was OK, but not with such a high number. Are other parents seeing their kids working with this type of problem with such a high number?

Yes. This problem is not too hard. I don't know why you are so stuck on this.

I think the issue for OP isn't that it's hard. It's just boring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is the stupid new way they teach math now.

They should be memorizing the facts first the way math has always been taught.

I am sorry. Where's the proof in American education and worldwide standings, and our overall success in math, that shows that the old way actually worked?

I agree with both of you, PPs. The old way didn't work, but will the new way? When did the change it? I have 20- year olds at work who can't figure out basic math.

OP, I think kids get it that the candies are divided between kids or whatever the problem is. They get it! There is no need to have them draw up 100 candies for more than once. They get the concept even with 20 candies. I'd be tired too when drawing the 80th candy. I feel like there's a lot of playing around and not enough memorizing. I had the times table memorized, my 4th grader doesn't. I think he does fine on the first half, for 2nd half he has to think to come up with the answer.
In my experience American kids do and see so much more than we ever did, but they were still bad at math in college. We just had pen, paper and chalk blackboard back at home. We never saw a worksheet or multiple choice question.
My kid is in 4th grade and his math homework has him do the same thing over and over again. He got it, let's move on.
We on the other hand had the teacher recite the problem. We had to pick out the numbers from the story and makes sure the answer makes sense. For what it's worth, my country is near top 10 in math according to Pisa. We even beat Finland.
I was in humanities class in high school. We only had 3 math classes a week, so I'd say I know only middle school math. But at work I'm asked to help every time somebody can't figure out how to calculate something. As I'm showing them how to do it, I do tell them the rules. So the rules have stuck with me. We learned nothing extra, there were no nice colored pictures on the math book. We just learned the foundation, the main rules and we learned them well. Maybe there's too much extra stuff in math curriculum and kids can't figure out what's important and worth knowing or memorizing.
Sorry for being all over the place, but I'm really interested in finding out where does the US math curriculum go wrong. I just ordered my kid's math book and I will bring one from Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It works for some kids, and is an abysmal failure for many others, who need the concrete before the abstract.

So you would claim that 25 x 5 = 100, or 5 + 5 = 10 is more "concrete" than distributing 100 pieces of candy to 25 people (or drawing a picture of doing so)?

The whole point of 5 + 5 = 10 is that it is a symbolic (abstract) language that is shorthand for the concrete (10 actual things).

I think your issue is that you're scared of word problems. Children don't see them as word problems. They see them like stories, and the pictures help them to understand the math involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It works for some kids, and is an abysmal failure for many others, who need the concrete before the abstract.

So you would claim that 25 x 5 = 100, or 5 + 5 = 10 is more "concrete" than distributing 100 pieces of candy to 25 people (or drawing a picture of doing so)?

The whole point of 5 + 5 = 10 is that it is a symbolic (abstract) language that is shorthand for the concrete (10 actual things).

I think your issue is that you're scared of word problems. Children don't see them as word problems. They see them like stories, and the pictures help them to understand the math involved.

Hmm. It may not be too hard for 2nd graders but it's too hard for some DCUMers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is the stupid new way they teach math now.

They should be memorizing the facts first the way math has always been taught.

I am sorry. Where's the proof in American education and worldwide standings, and our overall success in math, that shows that the old way actually worked?

I agree with both of you, PPs. The old way didn't work, but will the new way? When did the change it? I have 20- year olds at work who can't figure out basic math.

OP, I think kids get it that the candies are divided between kids or whatever the problem is. They get it! There is no need to have them draw up 100 candies for more than once. They get the concept even with 20 candies. I'd be tired too when drawing the 80th candy. I feel like there's a lot of playing around and not enough memorizing. I had the times table memorized, my 4th grader doesn't. I think he does fine on the first half, for 2nd half he has to think to come up with the answer.
In my experience American kids do and see so much more than we ever did, but they were still bad at math in college. We just had pen, paper and chalk blackboard back at home. We never saw a worksheet or multiple choice question.
My kid is in 4th grade and his math homework has him do the same thing over and over again. He got it, let's move on.
We on the other hand had the teacher recite the problem. We had to pick out the numbers from the story and makes sure the answer makes sense. For what it's worth, my country is near top 10 in math according to Pisa. We even beat Finland.
I was in humanities class in high school. We only had 3 math classes a week, so I'd say I know only middle school math. But at work I'm asked to help every time somebody can't figure out how to calculate something. As I'm showing them how to do it, I do tell them the rules. So the rules have stuck with me. We learned nothing extra, there were no nice colored pictures on the math book. We just learned the foundation, the main rules and we learned them well. Maybe there's too much extra stuff in math curriculum and kids can't figure out what's important and worth knowing or memorizing.
Sorry for being all over the place, but I'm really interested in finding out where does the US math curriculum go wrong. I just ordered my kid's math book and I will bring one from Europe.

I don't agree with this. I think drawing the pictures helps my elementary school understand that what we are doing with 100/5 is splitting these 100 things equally into 5 groups. And drawing it out (or manipulating tiles or whatnot) is also brilliant for helping him understand how 100, 5, and 20 interact with one another. I could probably teach my 4 year old, whenever you see: 100/5, just write down 20, but it won't help him understand that if we are at dinner with $100 to split between 5 people, how much can each person spend? And then to be able to apply that concept to different situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD has always done well in math, but this year suddenly she's saying she hates it. She brought home some worksheets that they were doing in class, and they seemed very confusing to me. For example, one was a word problem that required division, although it didn't use that word. It said someone had 100 pieces of candy and wanted to give five to each person in the class, and there are 25 people in the class. How many would each person get? Another said someone had 50 apples and wanted to put 2 in each basket, and so on. My DD had meticulously drawn out one hundred pieces of candy and then grouped them into 5's and done the whole thing that way...she actually got the answers right, but complained that it was hard. She has never learned either division or multiplication in school, and last year worked mostly with numbers less than 20, so this seems too difficult to me. Is your child doing work like this in 2nd? Do you think they could do it, if they did have it? This is public.

I'm sorry but what does it mean to have "always done well in math" when your kid is in the very beginning of SECOND GRADE? kindergarten and first grade math = 7 + 7. Woo hard.

Look if your kid is finding this word problem hard, she's not that good at math FYI. Your OP is revealing but not in the way you think.

[Anonymous]

I think it is on the harder side, but sounds like something that my second grader, who enjoys math, would get and be able to do.

[Anonymous]

I disagree with you that it is OK to struggle - if a child is asked to do a problem and doesn't have the tools to do it, it only leads to frustration. My DD did not feel good about getting the right answers. She said it was hard, and by hard she meant tedious and boring. She now hates math. So she isn't getting any pride from this at all.

Are you serious? Whether or not the problem itself was appropriate, of course it is ok to struggle and stretch to reach the next level of competence at something. If you just keep doing things that are easy for you, you're not moving forward. My son is in 2nd grade and struggles with reading. I could keep letting him read the same level 1 books that are for first graders over and over, or have him work on level 2 books, which are harder for him, and makes him feel bad about himself because he hates getting stuff wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I disagree with you that it is OK to struggle - if a child is asked to do a problem and doesn't have the tools to do it, it only leads to frustration. My DD did not feel good about getting the right answers. She said it was hard, and by hard she meant tedious and boring. She now hates math. So she isn't getting any pride from this at all.

But she did have the tools to do it. In fact, she did it. If you want to shield her from 'tedious and boring' good luck with that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with you that it is OK to struggle - if a child is asked to do a problem and doesn't have the tools to do it, it only leads to frustration. My DD did not feel good about getting the right answers. She said it was hard, and by hard she meant tedious and boring. She now hates math. So she isn't getting any pride from this at all.

But she did have the tools to do it. In fact, she did it. If you want to shield her from 'tedious and boring' good luck with that!