OJ: Made in America (ESPN Doc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://espn.go.com/30for30/ojsimpsonmadeinamerica/

Anyone have thoughts on this documentary?

IMO, its a fascinating take of the events occurred. Particularly as it relates to race and law.

1) The images of the Nicole and her lover confirmed my thoughts that the crime was one of passion. It was overkill. A hired gun wouldn't go to such lengths. OJ is guilt as sin and he knows it.

2) Even though the bastard was guilty as sin, the LAPD blew the case. No way jury could convict when Fuhrman pleads the 5th on planting evidence. He also is a racist. I'm not sure I could have convicted just knowing that alone.

3) I never truly understood why AA's at the time where so happy that he got off. I thought it was simply b/c he was black and they felt unfairly treated by the police. I viewed it more as an "eye for and eye" from the Rodney King beating verdicts. It was much deeper than that. More like an eye for one million eyes.

I don't believe this approach to "retribution" is right, but I completely understand the sentiment now, and can't say I would't have felt the same way, if I lived the shoes of an AA at the time. The Goldman and Brown families deserved justice, justice. The shouldn't have to pay b/c LE and the criminal justice system was, and likely still is, is inherently racist institution. My guess is that for every Brown and Goldman family, there are 10 AA families that don't get justice and that are intentionally harassed and/or persecuted. Neither should happen, but it seems no one cares about the latter. I didn't realize this.

I actually see parallels b/t the protests and anger during the trial and the ones we have today in response to all these shootings of unarmed AAs. Makes me wonder how far we have some on this front, and if another trial like this were to occur, would we have a similar situation. I believe we would.

4) The Goldman family is ultimately the reason why OJ is jail now. Without the civil case judgement, OJ would be living wealthy on tropical islands. Instead he was scavenging for assets and that lead to his downfall.

The fact that you are referring to Goldman as “her lover” makes me seriously question the remainder of your post.

I came away thinking that Johnny Cochran was a race-baiting attorney who knew that his only hope in getting a guilty man free was to focus on race instead of the actual crime.
Glad OJ is in prison and I actually hope he dies there.

NP here. OP made a simple typo. No need to be rude.

Cochran did his job. The LAPD made it easy for him. If they weren't racist, OJ would haBe just been another murderer in jail. Not some symbol of historical injustice.

I do not agree with the circumstances on how OJ was convicted for robbery. The sentence was way too aggressive based on the crime.

This is one of the arguments from one of Cochran's attorneys who basically said it was payback - supposedly the judge held the jury past midnight so the sentence could be delivered on the same date as his acquittal day years earlier and the sentence was identical (in number of years - 33) to the civil award $33.0 million.

One of the jurors from the murder case interviewed in the documentary flat out said that the not guilty verdict was a payback for Rodney King.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://espn.go.com/30for30/ojsimpsonmadeinamerica/

Anyone have thoughts on this documentary?

IMO, its a fascinating take of the events occurred. Particularly as it relates to race and law.

1) The images of the Nicole and her lover confirmed my thoughts that the crime was one of passion. It was overkill. A hired gun wouldn't go to such lengths. OJ is guilt as sin and he knows it.

2) Even though the bastard was guilty as sin, the LAPD blew the case. No way jury could convict when Fuhrman pleads the 5th on planting evidence. He also is a racist. I'm not sure I could have convicted just knowing that alone.

3) I never truly understood why AA's at the time where so happy that he got off. I thought it was simply b/c he was black and they felt unfairly treated by the police. I viewed it more as an "eye for and eye" from the Rodney King beating verdicts. It was much deeper than that. More like an eye for one million eyes.

I don't believe this approach to "retribution" is right, but I completely understand the sentiment now, and can't say I would't have felt the same way, if I lived the shoes of an AA at the time. The Goldman and Brown families deserved justice, justice. The shouldn't have to pay b/c LE and the criminal justice system was, and likely still is, is inherently racist institution. My guess is that for every Brown and Goldman family, there are 10 AA families that don't get justice and that are intentionally harassed and/or persecuted. Neither should happen, but it seems no one cares about the latter. I didn't realize this.

I actually see parallels b/t the protests and anger during the trial and the ones we have today in response to all these shootings of unarmed AAs. Makes me wonder how far we have some on this front, and if another trial like this were to occur, would we have a similar situation. I believe we would.

4) The Goldman family is ultimately the reason why OJ is jail now. Without the civil case judgement, OJ would be living wealthy on tropical islands. Instead he was scavenging for assets and that lead to his downfall.

It goes so far beyond Rodney King. Decades, generations, time immemorial racism in L.A. Whatever outrage you feel about O.J., imagine that kind of outcome on a daily basis, with cops, prosecutors, judges, juries not even bothering with trying to hide their racism.

I don't think most (white) people can even begin to wrap their heads around an existence in which there is no justice. Ever. You expect it kinda like you expect the second coming of Christ.

Which is to say you pretend you do, but you don't.

[Anonymous]

It’s really tragic that the Brown and Goldman families did not get justice because of “payback.”

[Anonymous]

What I want to understand is how this "payback" changed anything. It didn't. It was cheap and bad and creates more distrust between us and them (black and white, cops and civilians, etc.). Just like Baltimore, a big blowup and then everyone goes back to their corners, thinking the same way about the other group. We need a tribunal, like in South Africa, where everything can be aired out once and for all.

[Anonymous]

It's tragic when anyone doesn't receive justice. So sick of the media pretending this is the first time the system hasn't worked in the victim's favor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s really tragic that the Brown and Goldman families did not get justice because of “payback.”

OP here.

I agree. However I also believe it is tragedy that black jurors would have so much pain and anger that they would acquit to "send a message." And that millions of others would agree with it. The fact that it got to that point says to me that we (me included although I'm biracial/Asian) are not listening (to their cries). We hear one pain, but not the other. Then criticize AAs when we don't like how they display their frustration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I want to understand is how this "payback" changed anything. It didn't. It was cheap and bad and creates more distrust between us and them (black and white, cops and civilians, etc.). Just like Baltimore, a big blowup and then everyone goes back to their corners, thinking the same way about the other group. We need a tribunal, like in South Africa, where everything can be aired out once and for all.

It doesn't change anything. The cycle continues. But if you have been on the side of the oppressed, you might be okay with that result as long as you made the other side feel pain. If you know all things will remain constant if you remain quiet or not, then why not let the other side feel pain too.

I don't agree with the approach, but I understand it. Think of what must have happened to a person where they would want to let a guilty man go free on principle. Many of you will be snarky or dismissive about that, and that attitude is the reason why this happened. It's the reason why it happen again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really tragic that the Brown and Goldman families did not get justice because of “payback.”

OP here.

I agree. However I also believe it is tragedy that black jurors would have so much pain and anger that they would acquit to "send a message." And that millions of others would agree with it. The fact that it got to that point says to me that we (me included although I'm biracial/Asian) are not listening (to their cries). We hear one pain, but not the other. Then criticize AAs when we don't like how they display their frustration.

I know 20 years later, it looks like payback or sending a message, but at the time I don't believe it was. The now middle aged female juror even stated if the prosecution hadnt presented them such a sloppy case (and putting aside hatred for OJ, the case was sloppy) the result could have been different.

I also think many of the jurors had a negative view or maybe even experience with law enforcement. It made it easy for them to set aside logic and believe the possibility of a conspiracy. And the documentary did a great job showing the climate in LA at the time that contributed to this. Add that to the fact Furman pleaded the fifth when asked if he had planted evidence in the case (smart move by the defense, he probably would have plead the fifth if asked if the sky was blue), and you get a not guilty verdict.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really tragic that the Brown and Goldman families did not get justice because of “payback.”

OP here.

I agree. However I also believe it is tragedy that black jurors would have so much pain and anger that they would acquit to "send a message." And that millions of others would agree with it. The fact that it got to that point says to me that we (me included although I'm biracial/Asian) are not listening (to their cries). We hear one pain, but not the other. Then criticize AAs when we don't like how they display their frustration.

I know 20 years later, it looks like payback or sending a message, but at the time I don't believe it was. The now middle aged female juror even stated if the prosecution hadnt presented them such a sloppy case (and putting aside hatred for OJ, the case was sloppy) the result could have been different.

I also think many of the jurors had a negative view or maybe even experience with law enforcement. It made it easy for them to set aside logic and believe the possibility of a conspiracy. And the documentary did a great job showing the climate in LA at the time that contributed to this. Add that to the fact Furman pleaded the fifth when asked if he had planted evidence in the case (smart move by the defense, he probably would have plead the fifth if asked if the sky was blue), and you get a not guilty verdict.

One of the jurors explicitly said it was payback.

But I agree that the even legally, reasonable doubt was there. Seems like LE were trying to frame a guilty man. Wonder what they did to innocent ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really tragic that the Brown and Goldman families did not get justice because of “payback.”

OP here.

I agree. However I also believe it is tragedy that black jurors would have so much pain and anger that they would acquit to "send a message." And that millions of others would agree with it. The fact that it got to that point says to me that we (me included although I'm biracial/Asian) are not listening (to their cries). We hear one pain, but not the other. Then criticize AAs when we don't like how they display their frustration.

I know 20 years later, it looks like payback or sending a message, but at the time I don't believe it was. The now middle aged female juror even stated if the prosecution hadnt presented them such a sloppy case (and putting aside hatred for OJ, the case was sloppy) the result could have been different.

I also think many of the jurors had a negative view or maybe even experience with law enforcement. It made it easy for them to set aside logic and believe the possibility of a conspiracy. And the documentary did a great job showing the climate in LA at the time that contributed to this. Add that to the fact Furman pleaded the fifth when asked if he had planted evidence in the case (smart move by the defense, he probably would have plead the fifth if asked if the sky was blue), and you get a not guilty verdict.

One of the jurors explicitly said it was payback.

But I agree that the even legally, reasonable doubt was there. Seems like LE were trying to frame a guilty man. Wonder what they did to innocent ones.

Yes I heard this, she is an elderly woman now and notice the word "payback" was first suggested by the interviewer. I don't believe at the time she was thinking "yay we let a murderer get off", but maybe "yay we didn't let LAPD get away with their bs"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I want to understand is how this "payback" changed anything. It didn't. It was cheap and bad and creates more distrust between us and them (black and white, cops and civilians, etc.). Just like Baltimore, a big blowup and then everyone goes back to their corners, thinking the same way about the other group. We need a tribunal, like in South Africa, where everything can be aired out once and for all.

It doesn't change anything. The cycle continues. But if you have been on the side of the oppressed, you might be okay with that result as long as you made the other side feel pain. If you know all things will remain constant if you remain quiet or not, then why not let the other side feel pain too.

I don't agree with the approach, but I understand it. Think of what must have happened to a person where they would want to let a guilty man go free on principle. Many of you will be snarky or dismissive about that, and that attitude is the reason why this happened. It's the reason why it happen again.

This probably the reason why our country will never progress or resolve any of its issues related to race.

[Anonymous]

I always think of those poor children - the door left wide open what if they had woken up or what if they heard her or Ron scream. Has it ever been said if the crime itself was heard by neighbors or passerbys ? Screams or comotion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I want to understand is how this "payback" changed anything. It didn't. It was cheap and bad and creates more distrust between us and them (black and white, cops and civilians, etc.). Just like Baltimore, a big blowup and then everyone goes back to their corners, thinking the same way about the other group. We need a tribunal, like in South Africa, where everything can be aired out once and for all.

It doesn't change anything. The cycle continues. But if you have been on the side of the oppressed, you might be okay with that result as long as you made the other side feel pain. If you know all things will remain constant if you remain quiet or not, then why not let the other side feel pain too.

I don't agree with the approach, but I understand it. Think of what must have happened to a person where they would want to let a guilty man go free on principle. Many of you will be snarky or dismissive about that, and that attitude is the reason why this happened. It's the reason why it happen again.

This probably the reason why our country will never progress or resolve any of its issues related to race.

If white america chooses so, then yes, this statement will be true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Watching both the the FX series and ESPN doc, I came away fascinated with Johnnie Cochran. I didn't know much about his career and personal life outside of the OJ trial. I hear a biopic is being filmed about him, I'm really looking forward to watching.

I just finished the FX series and I did not care for Johnnie during the trial but I found myself liking him when he wasn't caught up in the trial.

My thoughts...Johnnie wasn't so much interested in defending OJ but as using this as his opportunity to put the racist LAPD on trial. He wanted to change race relations and thought this trial would be his chance to do so.

It also struck me at the end when Darden and Johnnie were talking. Johnnie offered Chris help in coming back to the community and Chris said he never left. Chris then told Johnnie how this trial won't be the one to change race relations. All people would see is they used the race card to get a guilty man off scot free.

I plan to watch the documentary next.

[Anonymous]

ESPN's film is probably the best told version of the events I have seen to date.

I was a bit young during the OJ trial, but I vaguely remember the reaction in my community (disgust).

I never knew about the whole Latasha Harlins? (forgive my spelling) shooting (murder). I can't believe that (Korean?) grocery store owner got probation for shooting Harlins in the BACK of the head. With all the other events, its not surprising that that event became a tipping point for riots. The system did not work for them.