Rule of Law in US -- blurred lines between "illegal" versus "immoral" or "unethical"

[Anonymous]

This is OP. A good read:

https://www.nycbar.org/press-releases/statement-on-wearing-of-masks-by-ice-agents/#:~:text=The%20Code%20of%20Federal%20Regulations%27%20provision%20governing,who%20is%20authorized%20to%20make%20the%20arrest.%E2%80%9D

FWIW I voted Harris.
I believe in following the letter of the law.
If it is truly against the law -- illegal for ICE agents to wear masks and not identify themselves -- then no, they should not be doing this.
I do see the pitfalls and dangers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:STOP

You are a Trump supporter.

There is nothing you need to say about Illegality or immorality.

The world and the rest of us are laughing at you fools

Good point

Trump supporters need to sit down and do some self-reflection. You literally voted for someone with 34 felony convictions. You have no business lecturing anyone on law. Not until you denounce Trump and walk away from him. Maybe THEN we'll listen to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP. A good read:

https://www.nycbar.org/press-releases/statement-on-wearing-of-masks-by-ice-agents/#:~:text=The%20Code%20of%20Federal%20Regulations%27%20provision%20governing,who%20is%20authorized%20to%20make%20the%20arrest.%E2%80%9D

FWIW I voted Harris.
I believe in following the letter of the law.
If it is truly against the law -- illegal for ICE agents to wear masks and not identify themselves -- then no, they should not be doing this.
I do see the pitfalls and dangers.

How soon before someone shoots an ICE agent who refuses to identify themselves? MAGA has already established the Castle Doctrine as acceptable, and that using guns to defend yourself against an attacker is good and righteous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is OP. A good read:

https://www.nycbar.org/press-releases/statement-on-wearing-of-masks-by-ice-agents/#:~:text=The%20Code%20of%20Federal%20Regulations%27%20provision%20governing,who%20is%20authorized%20to%20make%20the%20arrest.%E2%80%9D

FWIW I voted Harris.
I believe in following the letter of the law.
If it is truly against the law -- illegal for ICE agents to wear masks and not identify themselves -- then no, they should not be doing this.
I do see the pitfalls and dangers.

How soon before someone shoots an ICE agent who refuses to identify themselves? MAGA has already established the Castle Doctrine as acceptable, and that using guns to defend yourself against an attacker is good and righteous.

I believe the Castle Doctrine only applies to one's personal property and home. Meaning you can defend your home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will anyone know if these are even actually ICE agents? As it is, there have been at least three cases where they were NOT ICE Agents, that resulted in 2 kidnappings and a rape.

This, unfortunately, isn't isolated to ICE....there have been cases of bad people impersonating UPS drivers, police officers, etc. and committing similar crimes. These people, just like those impersonating ICE, should be prosecuted according to the law.

Of course, and ICE “agents” should be required to provide ID. How else would you know if they are real? Law enforcement typically has to *at least* provide a name and badge number when asked because they are PUBLIC SERVANTS.

This. Law enforcement ARE AGENTS OF GOVERNMENT. Even your IRS auditor has to show ID and they comb through your financial records with a fine tooth comb.

But for some reason an AGENT OF GOVERNMENT should be able to snatch you off the street in a mask and unmarked car without showing ID or a warrant?

GTFOH. That's ChiCom behavior.

For the love of God…law enforcement never shows warrants to random passerby who happen to witness an arrest. That’s not a thing.

When the US Marshals go to arrest a potentially armed fugitive wanted for murder, should they have to produce documents to satisfy the curiosity of anyone who happens to walk by? Or should they be able to do the job of apprehending a dangerous person in the safest and most efficient way possible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will anyone know if these are even actually ICE agents? As it is, there have been at least three cases where they were NOT ICE Agents, that resulted in 2 kidnappings and a rape.

This, unfortunately, isn't isolated to ICE....there have been cases of bad people impersonating UPS drivers, police officers, etc. and committing similar crimes. These people, just like those impersonating ICE, should be prosecuted according to the law.

Of course, and ICE “agents” should be required to provide ID. How else would you know if they are real? Law enforcement typically has to *at least* provide a name and badge number when asked because they are PUBLIC SERVANTS.

This. Law enforcement ARE AGENTS OF GOVERNMENT. Even your IRS auditor has to show ID and they comb through your financial records with a fine tooth comb.

But for some reason an AGENT OF GOVERNMENT should be able to snatch you off the street in a mask and unmarked car without showing ID or a warrant?

GTFOH. That's ChiCom behavior.

For the love of God…law enforcement never shows warrants to random passerby who happen to witness an arrest. That’s not a thing.

When the US Marshals go to arrest a potentially armed fugitive wanted for murder, should they have to produce documents to satisfy the curiosity of anyone who happens to walk by? Or should they be able to do the job of apprehending a dangerous person in the safest and most efficient way possible?

Nice try, Diddy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will anyone know if these are even actually ICE agents? As it is, there have been at least three cases where they were NOT ICE Agents, that resulted in 2 kidnappings and a rape.

This, unfortunately, isn't isolated to ICE....there have been cases of bad people impersonating UPS drivers, police officers, etc. and committing similar crimes. These people, just like those impersonating ICE, should be prosecuted according to the law.

Of course, and ICE “agents” should be required to provide ID. How else would you know if they are real? Law enforcement typically has to *at least* provide a name and badge number when asked because they are PUBLIC SERVANTS.

This. Law enforcement ARE AGENTS OF GOVERNMENT. Even your IRS auditor has to show ID and they comb through your financial records with a fine tooth comb.

But for some reason an AGENT OF GOVERNMENT should be able to snatch you off the street in a mask and unmarked car without showing ID or a warrant?

GTFOH. That's ChiCom behavior.

For the love of God…law enforcement never shows warrants to random passerby who happen to witness an arrest. That’s not a thing.

When the US Marshals go to arrest a potentially armed fugitive wanted for murder, should they have to produce documents to satisfy the curiosity of anyone who happens to walk by? Or should they be able to do the job of apprehending a dangerous person in the safest and most efficient way possible?

Except none of that is happening with ICE. They raiding churches, schools, and immigration hearings abducting people without due process or identification.

Example of ChiCom behavior by Big Government Agents who use the constitution as toilet paper for a paycheck:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will anyone know if these are even actually ICE agents? As it is, there have been at least three cases where they were NOT ICE Agents, that resulted in 2 kidnappings and a rape.

This, unfortunately, isn't isolated to ICE....there have been cases of bad people impersonating UPS drivers, police officers, etc. and committing similar crimes. These people, just like those impersonating ICE, should be prosecuted according to the law.

Of course, and ICE “agents” should be required to provide ID. How else would you know if they are real? Law enforcement typically has to *at least* provide a name and badge number when asked because they are PUBLIC SERVANTS.

This. Law enforcement ARE AGENTS OF GOVERNMENT. Even your IRS auditor has to show ID and they comb through your financial records with a fine tooth comb.

But for some reason an AGENT OF GOVERNMENT should be able to snatch you off the street in a mask and unmarked car without showing ID or a warrant?

GTFOH. That's ChiCom behavior.

For the love of God…law enforcement never shows warrants to random passerby who happen to witness an arrest. That’s not a thing.

When the US Marshals go to arrest a potentially armed fugitive wanted for murder, should they have to produce documents to satisfy the curiosity of anyone who happens to walk by? Or should they be able to do the job of apprehending a dangerous person in the safest and most efficient way possible?

Except none of that is happening with ICE. They raiding churches, schools, and immigration hearings abducting people without due process or identification.

Example of ChiCom behavior by Big Government Agents who use the constitution as toilet paper for a paycheck:

That’s a separate issue. I agree that immigrants should have some kind of hearing in which they can present a defense to deportation. I agree that ICE shouldn’t be arresting people at schools, churches and court proceedings. That has nothing to do with the mechanics of arresting someone or the legality of a bystander intervening to prevent an ICE arrest.

PP asserted that law enforcement should have to produce a warrant and ID to anyone who witnesses an arrest. That’s obviously absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When you have to ask if it’s “reeeeaaaallllyyyy illegal” to mask up and refuse to ID yourself and cowardly snatch people off the street to make a quota, you also forfeit your right to lecture people on what’s immoral or unethical.

+1 why aren’t you ballyhooing about all the white collar criminals, who were just pardoned by the felon and owe near a billion to state, local, and companies?

How can a person who picked fruit or drove vans, but didn’t have the correct forms be worse than these guys who the felon pardoned, and wiped out their restitution????? Please explain:

Trevor Milton, an electric-truck company owner, who had been convicted of securities fraud and wire fraud in 2023 and sentenced to four years in prison. He was ordered to pay $676m in restitution.

Ross William Ulbricht, the founder of Silk Road, an online marketplace that sold illegal drugs such as cocaine and heroin. Ulbricht had been convicted of aiding and abetting the distribution of drugs over the internet, continuing criminal enterprise, computer hacking conspiracy, and money laundering conspiracy. He had been sentenced to life in prison. (Ulbricht’s pardon fulfilled a Trump campaign promise.) Ulbricht was ordered to pay almost $184m.

HDR Global Trading Limited, operator of a cryptocurrency exchange that had been ordered to pay a $100m fine for violating the Bank Secrecy Act’s anti-money laundering provisions.

Lawrence Duran, owner of American Therapeutic Corp, a Miami-area mental health company, convicted of multiple counts related to healthcare fraud; Duran was sentenced to 50 years in prison and $87.5m in restitution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you have to ask if it’s “reeeeaaaallllyyyy illegal” to mask up and refuse to ID yourself and cowardly snatch people off the street to make a quota, you also forfeit your right to lecture people on what’s immoral or unethical.

+1 why aren’t you ballyhooing about all the white collar criminals, who were just pardoned by the felon and owe near a billion to state, local, and companies?

How can a person who picked fruit or drove vans, but didn’t have the correct forms be worse than these guys who the felon pardoned, and wiped out their restitution????? Please explain:

Trevor Milton, an electric-truck company owner, who had been convicted of securities fraud and wire fraud in 2023 and sentenced to four years in prison. He was ordered to pay $676m in restitution.

Ross William Ulbricht, the founder of Silk Road, an online marketplace that sold illegal drugs such as cocaine and heroin. Ulbricht had been convicted of aiding and abetting the distribution of drugs over the internet, continuing criminal enterprise, computer hacking conspiracy, and money laundering conspiracy. He had been sentenced to life in prison. (Ulbricht’s pardon fulfilled a Trump campaign promise.) Ulbricht was ordered to pay almost $184m.

HDR Global Trading Limited, operator of a cryptocurrency exchange that had been ordered to pay a $100m fine for violating the Bank Secrecy Act’s anti-money laundering provisions.

Lawrence Duran, owner of American Therapeutic Corp, a Miami-area mental health company, convicted of multiple counts related to healthcare fraud; Duran was sentenced to 50 years in prison and $87.5m in restitution.

I don’t understand why you’re so convinced we support those pardons. I think they’re outrageous and offensive to the rule of law. I also want most people in the country unlawfully to be deported. Those two things are entirely compatible.

[Anonymous]

The answer to OP must be that it's legal. ACLU, CASA and La Raza et al would have sued to oblivion by now if it weren't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The answer to OP must be that it's legal. ACLU, CASA and La Raza et al would have sued to oblivion by now if it weren't.

They are n behalf of some green card holders and American citizens and things like flights out of the country. Standing is hard here. They can’t just sue because it’s bad. They need someone to sue on behalf of. And they are. But Courts are slow. And also trying to figure this out. And Trump is ignoring them, so there’s that.

[Anonymous]

I’m an attorney in the process of resigning from my agency and go to work in ways that could oppose my agency. And it’s proving to be very hard to know I’m doing so in a legal and ethical manner, because their first thing Trump did was fire everyone who advised us on ethics. And even for an attorney, DIY federal ethics for security cleared attorneys is not a good idea.

At this point if I break a law or have an ethical lapse it’s because no one in this administration will let my agency tell me what is legal and ethical.

[Anonymous]

It’s also the rule of law to serve your country if you get drafted by the military, and yet I’d rather be a deserter than a killer in problematic wars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you have to ask if it’s “reeeeaaaallllyyyy illegal” to mask up and refuse to ID yourself and cowardly snatch people off the street to make a quota, you also forfeit your right to lecture people on what’s immoral or unethical.

+1 why aren’t you ballyhooing about all the white collar criminals, who were just pardoned by the felon and owe near a billion to state, local, and companies?

How can a person who picked fruit or drove vans, but didn’t have the correct forms be worse than these guys who the felon pardoned, and wiped out their restitution????? Please explain:

Trevor Milton, an electric-truck company owner, who had been convicted of securities fraud and wire fraud in 2023 and sentenced to four years in prison. He was ordered to pay $676m in restitution.

Ross William Ulbricht, the founder of Silk Road, an online marketplace that sold illegal drugs such as cocaine and heroin. Ulbricht had been convicted of aiding and abetting the distribution of drugs over the internet, continuing criminal enterprise, computer hacking conspiracy, and money laundering conspiracy. He had been sentenced to life in prison. (Ulbricht’s pardon fulfilled a Trump campaign promise.) Ulbricht was ordered to pay almost $184m.

HDR Global Trading Limited, operator of a cryptocurrency exchange that had been ordered to pay a $100m fine for violating the Bank Secrecy Act’s anti-money laundering provisions.

Lawrence Duran, owner of American Therapeutic Corp, a Miami-area mental health company, convicted of multiple counts related to healthcare fraud; Duran was sentenced to 50 years in prison and $87.5m in restitution.

I don’t understand why you’re so convinced we support those pardons. I think they’re outrageous and offensive to the rule of law. I also want most people in the country unlawfully to be deported. Those two things are entirely compatible.

You voted for Trump. You implicitly support those pardons through your silence outside of an anonymous message board. You cannot thread that needle without publicly condemning Trump and getting on the phone to your elected representatives and demanding Trump change his ways.