If you've ever tried to fire a fed...

[Anonymous]

I have forced out of my agency every post-probationary, problem child I have had the misfortune to supervise. I made their professional life a living hell by enforcing against them the applicable eppes and my own professional standards.

It’s a kick in the groin when they leave for a non-sup 15, but that pain is temporary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have forced out of my agency every post-probationary, problem child I have had the misfortune to supervise. I made their professional life a living hell by enforcing against them the applicable eppes and my own professional standards.

It’s a kick in the groin when they leave for a non-sup 15, but that pain is temporary.

I’m sure you don’t have an HR file a mile high. Question is, when is the bell tolling for you.

[Anonymous]

I've fired people. It's really not impossible. Talk to ELR and your employment law lawyers to make sure you know what the steps are, read your union agreement, etc. and just follow the process. Being a stickler about following the process will minimize the number of obstacles you face. It will take longer than you think, but you don't have to provide more than the minimum amount of time - the PIP doesn't have to last for 6 months or something extensive.

But if you know that you are starting this process, for the love of god, give them honest feedback at the mid-year. Actually rate them honestly and accurately against their performance standards. It undermines you when you say their performance is subpar and you've been giving them great performance reviews. Pro tip: if you can't give them honest feedback on a performance review, you likely don't have it in you to actually fire someone, in which case you may as well not waste your time in trying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have forced out of my agency every post-probationary, problem child I have had the misfortune to supervise. I made their professional life a living hell by enforcing against them the applicable eppes and my own professional standards.

It’s a kick in the groin when they leave for a non-sup 15, but that pain is temporary.

If they’re getting hired for non-sup 15s, then it sounds like you must be at fault here? They don’t hand that out like candy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm also thinking about the effects on morale in both directions. Everyone can tell she is not pulling her weight and some people probably resent that but at the same time firing someone is often bad for the morale of even the high performers.

As I high performing fed for 30 years, married to another high performing fed with almost the same amount of time in, I can guarantee that firing a poor performer will do nothing but help morale. My biggest resentment in federal government is that I am totally busting my butt but getting paid exactly the same as someone who twiddles their thumbs all day. At my agency, I have seen 3 people fired over the years - two who just stopped showing up for work and one who was stealing equipment. It still took almost a year to fire all of them Do the right thing. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is she in the probationary period? It’s not too hard at that stage.

No, I would of course put her on a PIP before I attempted firing, but so far I'm just considering my options.


I'm also thinking about the effects on morale in both directions. Everyone can tell she is not pulling her weight and some people probably resent that but at the same time firing someone is often bad for the morale of even the high performers.

Also, she has been at the agency for decades. She probably was decent at the job at one point.

So you will have an age discrimination lawsuit.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been at my agency for 15 years and I’ve seen it, but not much. The fastest was someone who made a violent threat against a colleague. More often employees eventually find other jobs, transfer to other departments, or take early retirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is she in the probationary period? It’s not too hard at that stage.

No, I would of course put her on a PIP before I attempted firing, but so far I'm just considering my options.


I'm also thinking about the effects on morale in both directions. Everyone can tell she is not pulling her weight and some people probably resent that but at the same time firing someone is often bad for the morale of even the high performers.

Also, she has been at the agency for decades. She probably was decent at the job at one point.

So you will have an age discrimination lawsuit.

There is no chance of "firing" her. You'll have better luck winning the lottery and the agency will have better luck moving you into a different position. I'd tread lightly. There are plenty of dead weights in many many MANY teams across the bureaucracy that is the federal government, at every single agency, so I would say, tell everyone on your team "it is what it is" and just get on with the work that your team is responsible for doing. As sad as it sounds, that's the only safe path forward for you, your team, your HR, your agency ... and when you go to for a better gig, you'll fancy up this story in your STAR response on having to motivate a team with a deadweight on it. You'll shine on!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have forced out of my agency every post-probationary, problem child I have had the misfortune to supervise. I made their professional life a living hell by enforcing against them the applicable eppes and my own professional standards.

It’s a kick in the groin when they leave for a non-sup 15, but that pain is temporary.

If they’re getting hired for non-sup 15s, then it sounds like you must be at fault here? They don’t hand that out like candy.

Non-supervisory 15s on the GS scale is the rainbow unicorn. So if you working hard to force out folks from your team and then those folks are getting non-supv 15 role while you're schlepping it up having to be a supv-15 trying to write up every problem child you encounter, you're definitely on the short end of that draw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have forced out of my agency every post-probationary, problem child I have had the misfortune to supervise. I made their professional life a living hell by enforcing against them the applicable eppes and my own professional standards.

It’s a kick in the groin when they leave for a non-sup 15, but that pain is temporary.

If they’re getting hired for non-sup 15s, then it sounds like you must be at fault here? They don’t hand that out like candy.

Sounds like somebody is a big asssshole and it’s you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You put them on a PIP, and then you ride them until they quit.

You can do this but this takes a lot of work and mental exhaustion. It's easier to discount them totally and then see if you can do a desk audit and downgrade them. That's when they leave in a hurry or they ask HR to place them elsewhere. It'll free you up perhaps with a FTE if your agency is clever enough to play like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have forced out of my agency every post-probationary, problem child I have had the misfortune to supervise. I made their professional life a living hell by enforcing against them the applicable eppes and my own professional standards.

It’s a kick in the groin when they leave for a non-sup 15, but that pain is temporary.

Almost sounds like you enjoyed it. Sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You put them on a PIP, and then you ride them until they quit.

This. You make it impossible for them to succeed or feel happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You put them on a PIP, and then you ride them until they quit.

Yep. You work with employee relations and HR all along the way, and this is what you do. Give honest feedback. Some of the other suggestions may work for other agencies but in a small group a non performer drags down morale significantly. And a desk audit means no guarantee a successor would stay at a GS15.

[Anonymous]

I fired a long time fed. My 1st and 2nd line supervisors were on board. Labor relations at my agency was helpful and the person was non bargaining. The person was on a PIP, however, in the end they falsified a government record and they were dismissed for conduct. The employee came back and voluntarily resigned. It was an extremely long process and required a lot of documentation. Other poor performers became scared and either got better or found other positions. I was left with a very strong team. Federal managers should take on poor performers.