If the Ivy League had to expand, who'd join?

[Anonymous]

From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

So, when you eliminate athletic considerations and personal fantasies, you might as well close the thread. Too much money in athletics to be ignored, but, if you do, this becomes an exercise in "inane hypotheticals".

Reality is that: Stanford wants to join the Big Ten and would receive no benefit whatsoever academically, culturally, or qualitatively from joining the Ivy League.

Reality is that: Northwestern is in the Big Ten and sitting pretty. Again, no benefit from Ivy League membership.

Reality is that: MIT, JHU, & Chicago could all benefit from Ivy League membership. And the Big Ten is not interested in any of these three schools, so feel free to send out the invitations.

But, I get your point and, if we agree to ignore reality, then you are right. And I mean this in a polite and respectful manner--not trying to be insincere or humorous in this final paragraph.
Without big time sports, Duke ceases to exist. Athletics is a main component of Duke's culture and identity.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, somehow the final paragraph got moved to the next to last paragraph.

[Anonymous]

MIT, UChicago, WashU, and Johns Hopkins are all D-3. It’s a hypothetical exercise but not sure why people keep tossing them out there.

(Uchicago, WashU, Emory, Case Western, and Carnegie Mellon are all in the same D3 athletics conference)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

Same repeat poster in this thread.

Serious question: Which elite academic schools do you think would benefit from Ivy League membership ?

Stanford just doesn't need the Ivy League, and if Stanford joined the Ivy League, it would likely reduce Stanford's brand value.

Would Chicago be willing to give up its reputation for quirkiness and manipulative marketing tactics for Ivy membership ? Doubtful as Chicago has mastered its marketing scheme and doesn't need the Ivy brand.

MIT also seems to be doing fine on its own. How would MIT benefit from joining the Ivy League ? MIT already has a brand as powerful as Harvard and Stanford. And you want us to ignore athletics.

Duke ? Duke's culture includes a heavy athletic emphasis that would be greatly diminished by Ivy League membership.

Northwestern has everything that it needs or wants in Big Ten membership regarding money, athletics, prestige, and research.

That leaves Johns Hopkins from your list and Carnegie Mellon from mine.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, not seeing any of the D-3s head to D-I. Not worth the investment, esp. given the (lack of) football payout from Ivy League [bowls, tv rights, etc]. Chicago does not have football -- you think the Ivies are going to add a full member without football? (the answer is no). MIT would get killed in all sports because of their admissions process and lack of consideration for athletics recruiting and would have to spend $$$ to upgrade everything to D-I level, which would pi$$ off alumni for absolutely zero return (NO way they'd admit kids to have any team that would not lose in Ivy play). Like, it might actually spark a backlash among alumni if they joined the Ivy League . JHU is also not going to spend the $$ to build out D-I level programs; right now they play in the same league as Swarthmore, Haverford, etc., except for their one D-I sport (lax). You think they want to spend the $$ (for no return $$) for D-I athletics otherwise? They don't need the Ivy League.

Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt, and Notre Dame are not going to give up the conference $ they get now -- they can't AND I think alumni would be mad (I am an alum of one of these.....I also hold a degree from an Ivy League school....I don't get the obsession....you think people are walking around Stanford's campus feeling inferior and wishing they were at Cornell because Cornell is in the Ivy League?)

The schools that would want to join the Ivy League are not the schools the Ivy League would want to add. The one D-I school I think would be an interesting scenario would be Rice. I could see them giving up whatever $ they're getting now and taking a financial hit to join. Plus they'd be more competitive in league play than they probably are now (I can't remember what the new name of Conference USA is, what they are in now).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

Same repeat poster in this thread.

Serious question: Which elite academic schools do you think would benefit from Ivy League membership ?

Stanford just doesn't need the Ivy League, and if Stanford joined the Ivy League, it would likely reduce Stanford's brand value.

Would Chicago be willing to give up its reputation for quirkiness and manipulative marketing tactics for Ivy membership ? Doubtful as Chicago has mastered its marketing scheme and doesn't need the Ivy brand.

MIT also seems to be doing fine on its own. How would MIT benefit from joining the Ivy League ? MIT already has a brand as powerful as Harvard and Stanford. And you want us to ignore athletics.

Duke ? Duke's culture includes a heavy athletic emphasis that would be greatly diminished by Ivy League membership.

Northwestern has everything that it needs or wants in Big Ten membership regarding money, athletics, prestige, and research.

That leaves Johns Hopkins from your list and Carnegie Mellon from mine.

Carnegie Mellon doesn't quite make the cut in terms of prestige/overall academics (though it shines in CS). Neither does Georgetown, as others in this thread have said.

[Anonymous]

Note to an above poster: The University of Chicago does have a football team that plays in a conference (possibly The Midwest Conference ?). Chicago plays Grinnell, Lake Forest, Knox, Concordia, and about 5 other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

Same repeat poster in this thread.

Serious question: Which elite academic schools do you think would benefit from Ivy League membership ?

Stanford just doesn't need the Ivy League, and if Stanford joined the Ivy League, it would likely reduce Stanford's brand value. Brand value? It's clear you've never attended any of the schools in the Ivy League or on this list

Would Chicago be willing to give up its reputation for quirkiness and manipulative marketing tactics for Ivy membership ? Doubtful as Chicago has mastered its marketing scheme and doesn't need the Ivy brand. D-3, does not have football, would not spend the $ for athletics, alumni and faculty would revolt

MIT also seems to be doing fine on its own. How would MIT benefit from joining the Ivy League ? MIT already has a brand as powerful as Harvard and Stanford. And you want us to ignore athletics. D-3, would not jump to D-1 play, alumni and faculty would revolt

Duke ? Duke's culture includes a heavy athletic emphasis that would be greatly diminished by Ivy League membership. You think Duke is just about sports? Stanford is actually a better athletic performer across the board and has more student-athletes....This comment is funny

Northwestern has everything that it needs or wants in Big Ten membership regarding money, athletics, prestige, and research. Wouldn't go for it, why lose conference payout

That leaves Johns Hopkins from your list and Carnegie Mellon from mine. Both Johns Hopkins and Carnegie Mellon are D-3; alumni and faculty would revolt if they spent the money to go D-1, don't care enough about sports.

The Ivy League is a sports league. None of these schools get anything from joining. OK, so maybe a little application volume boost (so what? What does that do? You think at the end of the day that's the most important item to these billion-dollar organizations? If you asked the presidents and boards of any or all of these institutions what their top 3 (or even 5) biggest items on their agenda or areas of focus were, NONE would mention anything having to do with undergraduate admissions "brand").

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

Same repeat poster in this thread.

Serious question: Which elite academic schools do you think would benefit from Ivy League membership ?

Stanford just doesn't need the Ivy League, and if Stanford joined the Ivy League, it would likely reduce Stanford's brand value.

Would Chicago be willing to give up its reputation for quirkiness and manipulative marketing tactics for Ivy membership ? Doubtful as Chicago has mastered its marketing scheme and doesn't need the Ivy brand.

MIT also seems to be doing fine on its own. How would MIT benefit from joining the Ivy League ? MIT already has a brand as powerful as Harvard and Stanford. And you want us to ignore athletics.

Duke ? Duke's culture includes a heavy athletic emphasis that would be greatly diminished by Ivy League membership.

Northwestern has everything that it needs or wants in Big Ten membership regarding money, athletics, prestige, and research.

That leaves Johns Hopkins from your list and Carnegie Mellon from mine.

Carnegie Mellon doesn't quite make the cut in terms of prestige/overall academics (though it shines in CS). Neither does Georgetown, as others in this thread have said.

CMU has strong academics beyond CS, and has a very highly regarded theater school which admits well under 5% of all applicants (if I recall correctly).

[Anonymous]

OK, so I stand corrected about Chicago and football. Point taken, but my overall thoughts remain that they get nothing from jumping to D-I and/or joining the Ivy League.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From a purely academic, cultural, and quality standpoint, and not an athletic one (which, let's be honest, is the real relevance of the Ivy League), it's: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, and Johns Hopkins.

Let's not get into inane hypotheticals about DI vs DIII, or bring in lesser schools just for the sake of entertaining your own personal fantasy.

Same repeat poster in this thread.

Serious question: Which elite academic schools do you think would benefit from Ivy League membership ?

Stanford just doesn't need the Ivy League, and if Stanford joined the Ivy League, it would likely reduce Stanford's brand value. Brand value? It's clear you've never attended any of the schools in the Ivy League or on this list

Would Chicago be willing to give up its reputation for quirkiness and manipulative marketing tactics for Ivy membership ? Doubtful as Chicago has mastered its marketing scheme and doesn't need the Ivy brand. D-3, does not have football, would not spend the $ for athletics, alumni and faculty would revolt

MIT also seems to be doing fine on its own. How would MIT benefit from joining the Ivy League ? MIT already has a brand as powerful as Harvard and Stanford. And you want us to ignore athletics. D-3, would not jump to D-1 play, alumni and faculty would revolt

Duke ? Duke's culture includes a heavy athletic emphasis that would be greatly diminished by Ivy League membership. You think Duke is just about sports? Stanford is actually a better athletic performer across the board and has more student-athletes....This comment is funny

Northwestern has everything that it needs or wants in Big Ten membership regarding money, athletics, prestige, and research. Wouldn't go for it, why lose conference payout

That leaves Johns Hopkins from your list and Carnegie Mellon from mine. Both Johns Hopkins and Carnegie Mellon are D-3; alumni and faculty would revolt if they spent the money to go D-1, don't care enough about sports.

The Ivy League is a sports league. None of these schools get anything from joining. OK, so maybe a little application volume boost (so what? What does that do? You think at the end of the day that's the most important item to these billion-dollar organizations? If you asked the presidents and boards of any or all of these institutions what their top 3 (or even 5) biggest items on their agenda or areas of focus were, NONE would mention anything having to do with undergraduate admissions "brand").

Maybe you are tired as I don't think that you realize that you are supporting my points. Regardless, I'll excuse your rudeness due to fatigue.

[Anonymous]

-Stanford
-Duke
-Chicago
-Northwestern
-Johns Hopkins

Maybe MIT, but they are culturally very different

[Anonymous]

I am tired, so no rudeness or snark intended.

Let me re-frame my point... Sure...for some subset of teenagers, could joining the Ivy League increase admissions visibility for these universities? I'll agree to that. However I think these schools wouldn't go for it because it wouldn't be a priority or worth the trade-offs. I think organizations try to act in ways that are aligned with their priorities and considering the cost/benefit. In this case, I think the costs far outweigh the benefits for these specific institutions. (your question was about which schools would benefit...)

Legal issues, federal/state/local legislative issues, research funding, endowment returns, intellectual property, scholarly production, alumni satisfaction (= philanthropic giving), medical center "needs" (nearly all of these institutions have complex 100s of million-dollar medical centers/functions), keeping faculty happy , staffing crises especially in non-skilled roles, and perhaps retention/graduation rate (as a signal of student success - 'outcomes') are likely the top issues facing these institutions' leadership -- presidents and boards.

At the end of the day, I think that some things that may seem really, really important to 17 year old prospective students and their parents are likely of little priority to those who manage these universities.

Food for thought -- I think if you asked the average person in an average town somewhere in America, they probably couldn't name all of the existing members of the Ivy League.

[Anonymous]

Georgetown