Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
I expect most transwomen are not sexually attracted to you. So relax.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
So are you creeped about by cisgender lesbians in the locker room?
I'm the PP who said I don't want to change with regular old men. Of the following groups, who are most likely to harm women: cisgender heterosexual women, cisgender lesbian women, trans women or men? We all know the answer is door number 4! Men. So I'll keep my women's locker room with all the cis women and trans women in it.
I don't get the thinking that allowing trans women into a women's locker room is going to put women at more risk. If there is some psycho man out there who wants to assault women in the bathroom or locker room, he's going to find a way to do it no matter what the rules are, because he is just a psycho. People like that have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people. Any person of any gender, sex, or orientation can be a psycho, but not everyone in a particular group is a psycho.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
So are you creeped about by cisgender lesbians in the locker room?
I'm the PP who said I don't want to change with regular old men. Of the following groups, who are most likely to harm women: cisgender heterosexual women, cisgender lesbian women, trans women or men? We all know the answer is door number 4! Men. So I'll keep my women's locker room with all the cis women and trans women in it.
I don't get the thinking that allowing trans women into a women's locker room is going to put women at more risk. If there is some psycho man out there who wants to assault women in the bathroom or locker room, he's going to find a way to do it no matter what the rules are, because he is just a psycho. People like that have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people. Any person of any gender, sex, or orientation can be a psycho, but not everyone in a particular group is a psycho.
Males, regardless of gender identity, commit 99.9% of sexual assaults against females. So it's doors 3 and 4.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
So are you creeped about by cisgender lesbians in the locker room?
I'm the PP who said I don't want to change with regular old men. Of the following groups, who are most likely to harm women: cisgender heterosexual women, cisgender lesbian women, trans women or men? We all know the answer is door number 4! Men. So I'll keep my women's locker room with all the cis women and trans women in it.
I don't get the thinking that allowing trans women into a women's locker room is going to put women at more risk. If there is some psycho man out there who wants to assault women in the bathroom or locker room, he's going to find a way to do it no matter what the rules are, because he is just a psycho. People like that have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people. Any person of any gender, sex, or orientation can be a psycho, but not everyone in a particular group is a psycho.
Males, regardless of gender identity, commit 99.9% of sexual assaults against females. So it's doors 3 and 4.
No, Transgender individuals are more likely to have been victimized that to be the victimizers.
Anonymous wrote:Why do the PPs think that the female survivors of assault represent of the needs of ALL women?
They represent the needs of a significant portion of females. Which far outnumber the amount of trans people, male and female combined.
Seems like the best solution for all is more individual changing stalls. It will make almost everyone more comfortable.
I could get behind that.
Now let’s move on to transwomen competing against females. What’s your solution for that - one where everyone wins?
People compete based on criteria defined by sports organizations to best balance fairness and inclusion (# years hormones, etc.).
Sports are about playing, not winning. Let's get more women of all backgrounds playing sports - with more equitable facilities/funding - instead of trying to exclude a small handful.
Billions of dollars in endorsements, scholarships, and prize money say that this statement is absurd.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
So are you creeped about by cisgender lesbians in the locker room?
I'm the PP who said I don't want to change with regular old men. Of the following groups, who are most likely to harm women: cisgender heterosexual women, cisgender lesbian women, trans women or men? We all know the answer is door number 4! Men. So I'll keep my women's locker room with all the cis women and trans women in it.
I don't get the thinking that allowing trans women into a women's locker room is going to put women at more risk. If there is some psycho man out there who wants to assault women in the bathroom or locker room, he's going to find a way to do it no matter what the rules are, because he is just a psycho. People like that have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people. Any person of any gender, sex, or orientation can be a psycho, but not everyone in a particular group is a psycho.
Males, regardless of gender identity, commit 99.9% of sexual assaults against females. So it's doors 3 and 4.
No, Transgender individuals are more likely to have been victimized that to be the victimizers.
"MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female
comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had
no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or
for violent offending." from Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
So are you creeped about by cisgender lesbians in the locker room?
I'm the PP who said I don't want to change with regular old men. Of the following groups, who are most likely to harm women: cisgender heterosexual women, cisgender lesbian women, trans women or men? We all know the answer is door number 4! Men. So I'll keep my women's locker room with all the cis women and trans women in it.
I don't get the thinking that allowing trans women into a women's locker room is going to put women at more risk. If there is some psycho man out there who wants to assault women in the bathroom or locker room, he's going to find a way to do it no matter what the rules are, because he is just a psycho. People like that have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people. Any person of any gender, sex, or orientation can be a psycho, but not everyone in a particular group is a psycho.
Males, regardless of gender identity, commit 99.9% of sexual assaults against females. So it's doors 3 and 4.
No, Transgender individuals are more likely to have been victimized that to be the victimizers.
"MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female
comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had
no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or
for violent offending." from Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates
Meaningless without actual %s. Six times a teeny tiny number is still a teeny tiny number.
This looks like it’s not US data.
Stop confusing transgender people with criminals. It’s disgusting.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
This isn’t true. Roughly 60% of trans women are bisexual. 20% are only attracted to women. Like 1% want to top you with their dicks and 0% of them have functioning penises without medics intervention. As it turns out, having very low testosterone and very high estrogen isn’t conducive to functioning male genitalia. The vast majority of trans women do not like using their genitals for sex. Those porn videos you watch aren’t accurate. Shocking, right? Trans porn is made for cisgender men, not for transgender women to watch.
I don’t watch trans porn (not that there’s anything wrong with it, but as a lesbian it isn’t my thing). And which year are your stats from?
Pp: A 2015 survey of roughly 3000 American trans women showed that at least 60% were attracted to women. Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer. (From Wikipedia cuz I’m not spending time on this as you’re arguing in bad faith).
So, ladies, that earns you want men in women’s spaces when only 19% of those men are NOT sexually interested in you. Still game?
Anonymous wrote:Pp: A 2015 survey of roughly 3000 American trans women showed that at least 60% were attracted to women. Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer. (From Wikipedia cuz I’m not spending time on this as you’re arguing in bad faith).
So, ladies, that earns you want men in women’s spaces when only 19% of those men are NOT sexually interested in you. Still game?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
This PP: I’m so sorry that I said that most transwomen are EXCLUSIVELY attracted to natal women. That was wrong and I apologize very much for not checking my facts before posting. Entirely my fault and, again, I apologize.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
If there is no fear, then what is the issue. Just let people change where they feel comfortable and leave them alone.
Even Gaines "never felt uncomfortable around Lia", that is, until she decided to work the RWNJ press circuit.
Locker rooms are segregated because of antiquated social norms.
I gotta say that I'd be fine with a trans woman next to me, but I don't want to change with regular old dudes. No thanks.
Do you realize that most transwomen are sexually attracted exclusively to women? Transbian, right? Does that make any difference? It really did to me.
So are you creeped about by cisgender lesbians in the locker room?
I'm the PP who said I don't want to change with regular old men. Of the following groups, who are most likely to harm women: cisgender heterosexual women, cisgender lesbian women, trans women or men? We all know the answer is door number 4! Men. So I'll keep my women's locker room with all the cis women and trans women in it.
I don't get the thinking that allowing trans women into a women's locker room is going to put women at more risk. If there is some psycho man out there who wants to assault women in the bathroom or locker room, he's going to find a way to do it no matter what the rules are, because he is just a psycho. People like that have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people. Any person of any gender, sex, or orientation can be a psycho, but not everyone in a particular group is a psycho.
That obviously doesn’t mean that anyone should be mean to transwomen or that they shouldn’t absolutely have all of the rights and protections that are available.
But it isn’t anyone’s inalienable right to go to the bathroom with / change in the locker room with / compete against whomever they choose, if that party doesn’t consent.
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