Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
Anonymous wrote:For those of you who want to ban trans women from locker rooms, can you tell me - without Googling - which of these women you think belong in the men's room?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
What you've said is that you want all trans women (described as males) to change in the men's room even if they don't have a penis. So it's not the penis, it's the male part. Why shouldn't they have single stall changing rooms for people worried about a male without a penis in a locker room?
Anonymous wrote:For those of you who want to ban trans women from locker rooms, can you tell me - without Googling - which of these women you think belong in the men's room?
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Any one of them who has a penis.
So you're one of the creeps who wants to look in young people's underpants under the guise of policing locker rooms. Gotcha.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
What you've said is that you want all trans women (described as males) to change in the men's room even if they don't have a penis. So it's not the penis, it's the male part. Why shouldn't they have single stall changing rooms for people worried about a male without a penis in a locker room?
No, I said that it would be impossible to police the presence of a penis, so we would have to segregate by sex to make it easier.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
Interesting idea. Should we set up a locker room just for bigots?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
Interesting idea. Should we set up a locker room just for bigots?
Also, not that I want to feed any trolls - but does that mean that if the trans person has undergone bottom surgery, you don't object to them actually living as women?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
There is no fear, as much as you would like that to be the reason.
Listen, if you’re comfortable changing in the locker room next to a male, have at it. If I don’t want to see someone’s penis, or if I don’t want my kids to see that, that is a valid concern. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of anything.
I’m not comfortable with it. Why do you think locker rooms were segregated in the first place? For shits and giggles?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
Interesting idea. Should we set up a locker room just for bigots?
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
Interesting idea. Should we set up a locker room just for bigots?
It's funny because (to steal her phrase), I'd bet my life that if there was a gender neutral locker room with individual changing stalls for trans people that she'd be in there changing instead of in the women's locker room.
Anonymous wrote:Jeff, I realize that discussions of this nature frequently get contentious, but why did you lock this thread? I think it's useful to hear ideas and share experiences about why some people are not on board with aspects of LGBTQIA+ activism, as long as they aren't hateful .
NP. Look, I want to believe you are well-intentioned, but just the way you posed the question betrays your bias. What you call “LGBTQIA+ activism” is people fighting for the simple right to live their lives in peace. To be able to use the bathroom, change clothes, seek health care, care for their children, and go to school or work without fear of humiliation, abuse, or arrest.
If you want to debate that right, then you want to debate people’s right to exist. There’s no way to do that without being hateful.
We are talking about positions held by mainstream Republicans, not positions held be the fringe in this country. To not allow debate about positions held my a large percentage of the country outside of big cities shows the divide we have in this country.
The non-crazy Republicans left the party a few years ago. The only people left are the extremists.
Wtf? And this right here is the problem not only with this thread, but with the entire country. People make baseless proclamations like this, paint an entire political party with a broad brush, and act like they’re the only one whose opinion matters.
Do better.
Agree very much.
Sorry, it’s true. The non-crazy Republicans left the GOP years ago.
It's true! I took a poll at the co-op and 11/10 people agreed with me. I counted the non-binary person twice!
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Oh nevermind, I see where you're going with this now. You said you didn't want a penis but then followed up with male on purpose. It was precise language. You're saying all trans women in the men's locker room. Maybe they should have gender neutral locker rooms and single stall ones? I think that for someone that's afraid that someone might still have a penis, they could use their own locker room.
I would bet my life savings that there are more of us who don’t want to share a locker room with a penis than there are trans people in total. So WE are the ones who need to use a different locker room?
Interesting idea. Should we set up a locker room just for bigots?
Yeah those people who initially decided to segregate locker rooms were such bigots. Are they even still alive? Because if they are we should do something about their bigotry.
Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP who posted above that one of the things that bothers me the most about this entire discussion is the unending gaslighting from trans rights advocates, something that is seen on DCUM in the small and writ large across the movement in general. It’s a relentless narrative: “Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do? You must be absorbing propaganda because God knows you ladies couldn’t possibly reach rational conclusions based on living your entire lives as sexed females in a grossly misogynist world filled with sex-based violence!”
I read this article that I thought was excellent, and captures a lot of my feelings on the matter, so sharing:
I am not afraid of trans people. I am afraid of losing the principle – within feminism, of all places – that female lives matter as much as male ones. That our desires are not trivial, selfish, frivolous, whereas those of male people are a matter of life and death. That our perceptions of reality are as valid as male ones. That we do not deserve to be bullied and gaslighted into pandering to male egos in the name of “being kind“. That we are not privileged airheads who should say yes to everything because hey, what does it cost us? What do we know about pain? What even are we?
I must have missed the bolded when it was written. Could you please link to that post?
I am not the person who wrote this but I can assure you that although these specific words may have not been written, this is the message we are getting.
I am unapologetic about fighting to keep biological males out of female spaces. I am not homophobic. But make no mistake, people like me are being told out feelings don’t matter.
So, your point is that the thing that bothers that poster the most is something that was not actually said?
Jeff I’ve really grown to respect you and your opinions during this discussion, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here.
You are not a female. I think it is difficult for you to understand that females have unique struggles that people who identify as women cannot possibly understand. And that males clearly cannot understand.
I understand your desire to be inclusive and to support trans rights. But let’s be honest - there is absolutely nothing that is on the line for you personally.
I say this respectfully Jeff, I really do. I enjoy your website and this important discourse you’ve allowed us to have on this topic. And I thank you for that.
I am not sure whether you have realized it, but you have both moved the goalposts and reversed the logic of the issue that bothers the earlier poster the most. She was bothered by being told not to worry about "manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do". Your objection is to the invasion of women's spaces by people that you don't consider to be women. That is a different issue. Moreover, you are now telling me not to worry my pretty little head (very liberal paraphrasing here) about "women's" topics.
This thread started out with the original poster stating a desire to have good faith discussions of this issue. One of the reasons we can't have good faith discussions is that so many posters simply don't act in good faith. I am certain that nobody told the earlier poster not to worry her pretty little head about "manly" topics. With the exception of me, the posters in this thread are likely female and I absolutely said no such thing. Yet, that entirely made up quote is the thing that bothers her the most.
What that poster probably means is that she does not believe her arguments are taken seriously. I would argue they are taken seriously, but not always found to be persuasive. She blames this on misogyny rather than shortcomings with her arguments. Similarly, you also refuse to consider that your arguments simply might not be as strong as you seem to believe, but simply claim that only females are capable of understanding. Of course, you ignore the females who hold view identical to mine. What is your explanation for why they don't understand?
So PP’s “very liberal paraphrasing” wasn’t ok (you wanted a direct quote) while yours is? Talk about not discussing in good faith.
Apparently you are not familiar with the rules of English grammar. The earlier poster used quotation marks around the passage that I bolded. I am sure that you can Google the meaning of quotation marks, but to put it simply, they do not indicate that something is being paraphrased. To the contrary, they specify that they surround something that was literally stated. I, on the other hand, did not use quotations marks. To ensure that there would be no confusion, I offered additional clarification that I was not only paraphrasing, but doing so very liberally and, hence, far from literally. Hopefully this clarifies things for you sufficiently.
That PP also explicitly used the word narrative.
Do you know what that word means?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what that word means. Can you show me where there is a narrative in which the earlier poster was told, "Why are you worrying your pretty little heads with important manly topics that are for people who matter more than you do?"
First, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever suggest that transgenderism is a "manly" topic, let alone one with which women should not concern themselves. Second, who has told the poster that this is a topic for people who matter more than she does?
This is the thing that bothers that poster the most so certainly there is at least one example of it here.
I think that you’re failing to account for the manner in which women are constantly told to be quiet, spoken over, and dismissed. I promise we can see what’s happening.
That may well be true as a society-wide issue but is not something that has been happening in this discussion in which nearly all participants are women and all views are being given equal voice. It's hard to speak over a written message. Moreover, this is a different complaint than that made by the earlier poster who did not simply complain that her views were dismissed, but that she was told not to talk about "manly" issues that should be left to those that matter more than her. That simply didn't happen.
I am not the “manly” poster but even if we take “manly” out of the equation a large number of women definitely feel as though we are being told the feelings of trans people matter more than our feelings. We are told that our outrage over transwomen competing in women’s sports isn’t valid because there is such a small number of trans athletes so why would we be upset about this? That’s saying that Lia Thomas’ teammates have to just suck it up.
I disagree with your overall views about trans issues. Why do your feelings matter more on the subject than mine? I’m a woman. Does it make you a misogynist to not care about how some women feel just because they disagree with you? Because I’ve been told I’m a misogynist for not wanting to ban trans women from bathrooms and locker rooms.
I said this before and I’ll say it again. Neither one of us is right or wrong. It’s an opinion on the status of trans people. It’s what the majority thinks/wants that will win in the end. And I am certain my side will win.
You think that the majority of the country wants transgender women in the men's bathrooms and transgender men in the women's bathrooms?
Do you think the majority of the country should be able to decide if adults are allowed to transition and what adults should be able to do with their own bodies and how they live their lives?
I think the majority of the country doesn’t want penises in female spaces. And doesn’t want transwomen competing against females in sports. I also think the majority of the country doesn’t think that womanhood is a feeling.
I think adults can do whatever they want. I’m not sure how the majority of the country feels about that particularly.
So you're saying you want pre-op trans women in the men's bathroom and post-op trans women in the women's bathroom?
Quite honestly the bathroom thing doesn’t bother me as much as the locker room thing. I definitely don’t want to be changing or showering with a biological male.
So you're opinion is, bathroom whatever because it's closed stalls. Locker room, pre-op and post-op trans women should change in the men's locker room with your men and boys?
I’m not sure why you want me to keep repeating it, but I don’t want a penis in the locker room with me. Post op clearly wouldn’t have a penis, but that would be difficult to police. So it would have to be segregated by male/female. That’s the only way to keep the penises out.
Is there a word for fear of penises?
I don't get the obsession with other people's genitalia. Are you OK with women with big flappy labia? Extra full bush? Micro clit? Are you really looking at people's junk that closely?
Almost everyone would prefer individual changing stalls. They would make everyone more comfortable.
It's definitely a fear of penises because she's scared of seeing one so much that she wants trans women that have had surgery to change with men because "we can't police it".
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