If Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, where did Christian theology come from?
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Anonymous
Atheist pp lost the historical Jesus argument and is desperately trying to derail into other topics. |
Anonymous
You're kidding, right? You're not serious that Ehrman, Levine and Fredricksen are biased in favor of finding Jesus existed. These are people who have made their careers trying to disprove various parts of the gospels and publishing books like Jesus Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus. Proving Jesus didn't exist would be the capstone of these peoples' careers. You're a clown, sorry. |
Anonymous
| Yes, it’s clear that many people heard about him. That’s not evidence. |
Anonymous
You seem to struggle with facts. Shocker. |
Anonymous
You're using weasel words like "pretty" convincing and "likely" existed. A third-grader know these leave word for doubt. |
Anonymous
Some skeptics have maintained that the best account of the biblical and historical evidence is the theory that Jesus never existed; that is, that Jesus’ existence is a myth (Well 1999). Such a view is controversial and not widely held even by anti-Christian thinkers.” –Michael Martin, “Skeptical Perspectives on Jesus’ Resurrection”, in Delbert Burkett’s The Blackwell Companion to Jesus, Oxford: Blackwell, 2011), 285 Michael Martin, Atheist |
Anonymous
If I were an atheist I'd be embarrassed to have you on my side. Ad hominems much? |
Anonymous
They are nitpicking details in the literature, not stepping back to look at archeological evidence of his existence. Again, using gospels as evidence is a disqualifier. |
Anonymous
Hundreds of people scattered across the Middle East. Many in the original Aramaic in the first decade or two (Bart says probably in the first decade) after Jesus' death. Serious scholars accept this as evidence. What are your scholarly credentials? |
Anonymous
Should we go back and count the number of off-topic “flat earther” posts? Because we can. |
Anonymous
It’s evidence that people heard of him. |
Anonymous
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As far as we know, no ancient person ever seriously argued that Jesus did not exist.33 Referring to the first several centuries C.E., even a scholar as cautious and thorough as Robert Van Voorst freely observes, “… [N]o pagans and Jews who opposed Christianity denied Jesus’ historicity or even questioned it.”34
Nondenial of Jesus’ existence is particularly notable in rabbinic writings of those first several centuries C.E.: “… [I]f anyone in the ancient world had a reason to dislike the Christian faith, it was the rabbis. To argue successfully that Jesus never existed but was a creation of early Christians would have been the most effective polemic against Christianity … [Yet] all Jewish sources treated Jesus as a fully historical person … [T]he rabbis … used the real events of Jesus’ life against him” (Van Voorst).35 https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/did-jesus-exist/ |
Anonymous
Those were quoting serious scholars about non-scholars like you. PP didn't make them up. |
Anonymous
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We can learn quite a bit about Jesus from Tacitus and Josephus, two famous historians who were not Christian. Almost all the following statements about Jesus, which are asserted in the New Testament, are corroborated or confirmed by the relevant passages in Tacitus and Josephus. These independent historical sources—one a non-Christian Roman and the other Jewish—confirm what we are told in the Gospels:31
1. He existed as a man. The historian Josephus grew up in a priestly family in first-century Palestine and wrote only decades after Jesus’ death. Jesus’ known associates, such as Jesus’ brother James, were his contemporaries. The historical and cultural context was second nature to Josephus. “If any Jewish writer were ever in a position to know about the non-existence of Jesus, it would have been Josephus. His implicit affirmation of the existence of Jesus has been, and still is, the most significant obstacle for those who argue that the extra-Biblical evidence is not probative on this point,” Robert Van Voorst observes.32 And Tacitus was careful enough not to report real executions of nonexistent people. 2. His personal name was Jesus, as Josephus informs us. 3. He was called Christos in Greek, which is a translation of the Hebrew word Messiah, both of which mean “anointed” or “(the) anointed one,” as Josephus states and Tacitus implies, unaware, by reporting, as Romans thought, that his name was Christus. 4. He had a brother named James (Jacob), as Josephus reports. 5. He won over both Jews and “Greeks” (i.e., Gentiles of Hellenistic culture), according to Josephus, although it is anachronistic to say that they were “many” at the end of his life. Large growth in the number of Jesus’ actual followers came only after his death. 6. Jewish leaders of the day expressed unfavorable opinions about him, at least according to some versions of the Testimonium Flavianum. 7. Pilate rendered the decision that he should be executed, as both Tacitus and Josephus state. 8. His execution was specifically by crucifixion, according to Josephus. 9. He was executed during Pontius Pilate’s governorship over Judea (26–36 C.E.), as Josephus implies and Tacitus states, adding that it was during Tiberius’s reign Some of Jesus’ followers did not abandon their personal loyalty to him even after his crucifixion but submitted to his teaching. They believed that Jesus later appeared to them alive in accordance with prophecies, most likely those found in the Hebrew Bible. A well-attested link between Jesus and Christians is that Christ, as a term used to identify Jesus, became the basis of the term used to identify his followers: Christians. The Christian movement began in Judea, according to Tacitus. Josephus observes that it continued during the first century. Tacitus deplores the fact that during the second century it had spread as far as Rome. Lawrence Mykytiuk’s feature article from the January/February 2015 issue of BAR with voluminous endnotes Lawrence Mykytiuk, Ph.D., Hebrew and Semitic Studies, is Emeritus Professor of Library Science, Purdue University, where from 2014 to 2021 he had a continuing courtesy appointment as Associate Professor of History. His research focuses primarily on historicity of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, on which he has published both evidences and bibliographic surveys. |
Anonymous
Bumping because pp at 11:05 obviously didn't read it. |