Are AP-type classes racist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed ancestry, but identify as AA. I’m also a mid-career public school teacher and have taught in a diverse variety of schools. I taught AP for three years and two of my own children have taken AP courses. Here’s my thoughts:
1) who gets selected to take AP and who gets support during the course can be shaped by systemic racism. My district had a huge problem with excluding students of color from these courses when selection was based on teacher recommendation. Once students were allowed to chose, the enrollment increased a lot temporarily. When they dropped a bit, surveys found that students of color withdrew because they felt unwelcome by the teachers and white peers. Not because the work was difficult or boring. Because they were asked if they were in the wrong classroom or not called upon unless the question was about race. When my older DD took AP, she was not invited to the elective support course that most of the white students were enrolled in. When she asked about it, the teacher told her that it was for students who needed to get a 5 to apply for highly competitive colleges and she could get into a state school or HBCU just fine with a 3. Of course, we had a meeting about that and the teacher said she meant no harm, it was just based on her experience with students like my daughter. She failed to clarify what she meant other than DD’s skin color. DD transfered to the other AP teacher and ended up earning a 5.
2) The tests themselves do not seem racially biased or class-biased in the way that the SAT can be.

These posts are so helpful because they point out the *subtle* ways that racism persists. Those slights can be hard to prove. Of course, some of this abject racism: the teacher assuming your daughter would not also be applying for highly competitive colleges. We white people need to do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tutoring is good, but its impact will be lower than you think.

Mainly the kids with motivated parents will want to stay for extra tutoring/school. These are the kids that are likely to succeed anyway.

The kids that have the most trouble come from households that don’t have the time, energy, or inclination to care about school.

They won’t make their kids sign up for tutoring.

Some say the problem starts even earlier, with parents not reading or talking enough to their toddlers or even worse neglecting or abusing them.

It sets kids behind even in kindergarten.

I’d say universal pre-K is more helpful than tutoring, but even that’s not a silver bullet.

We really just need to fix poverty. There’s a strong correlation between family income and educational success.

+1

Racism is one thing. It absolutely needs to be addressed and stamped out. Hard. But equity is a different thing.

If you are going to be focused on equity, then any type of grading leads to inequity as well. Educated parents would tend to give their children a leg up, just because they have the time and money. Reading to them, helping them review the subject, etc.

About the only way to attain "Equity" would be for everyone to get paid the exact same amount. I might be wrong, but I think there is a country that tried it out and did not work all that well for them.

- A Liberal Democrat

[Anonymous]

I'm all for having a high "floor" of support to make sure kids get all the basics they need to succeed... including nutrition and other programs, I'm fine with applying resources towards extra tutoring or 1:1 time for kids who are struggling, etc.

But when you get hyper-focused on equal outcomes to the point you start not only creating a floor of support, but also putting a cap on achievement and progression for the kids who are ahead of grade level, then you've clearly gone a bridge too far. A reasonable conception of "fairness" won't lead to exactly equal outcomes in sports, or business, or any other aspect of life... why do some expect it to in academics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They are missing out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They *would miss* out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They *would miss* out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

But that’s just it: there are few to none of them. Point ing to one or two is like saying we are in a post racial world because we once had a Black president.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They *would miss* out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

But that’s just it: there are few to none of them. Point ing to one or two is like saying we are in a post racial world because we once had a Black president.

Well, we need to remove barriers to entry as best we can. Not get rid of APs all together. That's throwing the baby out with the bath water, and you're not solving anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They *would miss* out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

But that’s just it: there are few to none of them. Point ing to one or two is like saying we are in a post racial world because we once had a Black president.

Well, we need to remove barriers to entry as best we can. Not get rid of APs all together. That's throwing the baby out with the bath water, and you're not solving anything.

At my school there are many black and brown students in APs, but regardless why would we hurt those students by getting rid of APs? And who does that actually help?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I don't think AP classes are the issue and I think they should stay. It sounds like it's the schools and teachers who have preconceived stereotypes of black and Hispanic kids that result in them subconsciously or consciously holding back students of color. So first, I think we need to pay teachers very well, specifically those who choose to work in title 1 and Focus schools and who stay there for x number of years.. Evaluate them on how well they are supporting URM students. Next why can't we provide free tutoring to all kids who need support starting at elementary school? Make it a mandatory part of their day..not an after school or weekend program. Finally, I do think we need to get rid of the ridiculous GS ratings which is a huge reason we have segregated schools.

Who will do this?

Get creative. Make it a requirement for all college students who received a full ride to a state college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They *would miss* out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

But that’s just it: there are few to none of them. Point ing to one or two is like saying we are in a post racial world because we once had a Black president.

There’s more than “one or two,” PP. And the APs open doors for them academically - college and very nice scholarships. A 4 or a 5 shows the world how smart you are.

We are on the right track, in terms of improving access and expanding support. But there is much work to be done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I don't think AP classes are the issue and I think they should stay. It sounds like it's the schools and teachers who have preconceived stereotypes of black and Hispanic kids that result in them subconsciously or consciously holding back students of color. So first, I think we need to pay teachers very well, specifically those who choose to work in title 1 and Focus schools and who stay there for x number of years.. Evaluate them on how well they are supporting URM students. Next why can't we provide free tutoring to all kids who need support starting at elementary school? Make it a mandatory part of their day..not an after school or weekend program. Finally, I do think we need to get rid of the ridiculous GS ratings which is a huge reason we have segregated schools.

Who will do this?

Get creative. Make it a requirement for all college students who received a full ride to a state college.

So all college students would make good tutors? Let's be realistic here. They are not and you don't want random people tutoring kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They *would miss* out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

But that’s just it: there are few to none of them. Point ing to one or two is like saying we are in a post racial world because we once had a Black president.

There’s more than “one or two,” PP. And the APs open doors for them academically - college and very nice scholarships. A 4 or a 5 shows the world how smart you are.

We are on the right track, in terms of improving access and expanding support. But there is much work to be done.

+1

PP when was the last time you set foot in a high school? In DC it’s a requirement that all HS students take at least one AP. And lots of black and brown students take AP classes. Look at Walls, Banneker, Wilson, McKinley Tech, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A recent study in Boston concluded they are. I have never seen statistics like this.


From the article: district analysis of the program found that more than 70 percent of students enrolled in the program were white and Asian, even though nearly 80 percent of all Boston public school students are Hispanic and Black. There's been a lot of inequities that have been brought to the light in the pandemic that we have to address," Cassellius told GBH News. "There's a lot of work we have to do in the district to be antiracist and have policies where all of our students have a fair shot at an equitable and excellent education

https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

This is the link: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-

"Antiracist" is certainly quite a word. It sounds like a good thing to be. It was coined by Ibram X. Kendi, who is quoted in his book "How to be an Antiracist" as saying: "The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination." Woke anti-racists also demand that any difference in achievement, performance, or wealth between two groups be explained as a form of racial discrimination. The cherry of the cupcake is that anyone who argues with the antiracists is, by definition, a racist. It's been shocking to me that Liberal white America has fallen for this anti-liberal claptrap so quickly. I suppose it's some combination of well-meaning charity with a heaping amount of guilt-assuagement.

Back to AP classes; the same argument, by the way, can be made for elite college admissions and test-in high schools like TJ (until last year.) The argument goes like this; if a desirable thing does not perfectly represent the demographics of society, it must be racist. The solutions these days seem to be to either abolish the institutions, or remove the barriers to entry (tests, performance.) Or, in a more radical version, actually bar white / asian kids from attending. This has been happening a lot in the education sector. Where will this end up?

Perhaps the most powerful human drive is the parental nurturing drive. Parents want the best education for their children for one simple reason; so that they will have good lives. Parents will eventually wise up to what is happening, and dollars will start to flee organizations who lower standards. What we will be left with will be worse for everyone; for the high achievers who are suddenly being shamed for being smart and driven; for poor kids of all races who now can't even find a good public option; and for the country, which will be even further divided than it is now. By lowering standards and ripping out selective public educational institutions, we'll simply create even more of a "have" (private) and "have not" (public) system. And what about the kids who now enjoy "equal access" to test-free high schools? They will hit a dead-end when they hit the workforce. Companies don't care about AP tests or the name of a high school; they care about talent and skill. Lowering the bar to make something "antiracist" is perhaps the most racist thing that can be done; we'll have another generation of kids who can't find work.

You are forgetting that workplaces must employ affirmative action to make sure employees are representative of the population.

No they mustn't. High-performing companies are meritocracies. You can bet that Tesla and SpaceX don't use affirmative action approaches when hiring engineers.

This is completely false. I know highly-placed hiring executives in top tech companies who are actively recruiting minorities for high level positions (engineers, software developers and other IT positions).

[Anonymous]

Every student at our school takes AP classes. Everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just going to say that the point of AP classes is or should be to reduce the number of college classes that students pay (a lot) for.

Due to APs (and dual enrollment), DD is able to graduate with a bachelors degree in three years but will stay the 4th and work on a masters degree. This will save her/us a lot of money.

Everyone should have this opportunity and the classes should be well-taught. We are thinking about this the wrong way.

+1

I agree completely! I am a HS teacher and many students take my class (an AP) to get credits in college. Many can graduate in three years or go abroad for a full year because they have a bunch of credits or take more electives of interest, etc. This can especially help lower middle class and low income families in terms of loans and college costs.

How can you both support this when there are few to no minorities in those classes?

Equity demands an end to the racist AP system.

But what about the Black and Brown kids who excel at APs? They are missing out as well. The minority students at our high school tend to do very well on APs and yes they go on to Ivies etc. They deserve that opportunity.

[note: I agree that the curriculum for some of the APs needs updating.]

It is up to the teacher or school district to update their AP curriculum. There is more than one way to teach every single AP class. Our school offers 16 different (rotating) versions of AP Lit, for example.