Independent schools and "advanced" kids: national problem?

[Anonymous]

PSAT/NM less so because it's generally compulsory for college bound HS students. AP scores definitely because they are a function of what a particular school offers.

I take exception to your conclusion about the AP exam. Taking the AP exam does not require taking an AP or honors course. You do not have to take any course for that matter. If you have a check book and sign up with a local high school or enterprise administering the exam you can take the AP subject exams. Students in middle school and home school sign up for various AP exams (e.g. Calculus BC and Physics A,B, C); take the exams and some actually attain 5s. Some high school students will study over the summer and take AP exams in May for subjects they have not signed up for in the school year. It's a great way to bypass poorly taught courses or get advanced placement into honors courses in high school. A score of a 5 on one of these exams carries a lot of weight in high school regardless of whether you actually took a high school course or not.

Taking and passing the AP exam is not solely a function of what a particular school offers. Many enterprising families and their children take AP exams without registering for any courses. It has proven an excellent strategy for some students sculpturing their middle and high school curricular pathway. It's a great way to circumnavigate bureaucracy at private and public institutions.

[Anonymous]

PSAT/NM less so because it's generally compulsory for college bound HS students. AP scores definitely because they are a function of what a particular school offers.

I take exception to your conclusion about the AP exam. Taking the AP exam does not require taking an AP or honors course. You do not have to take any course for that matter. If you have a check book and sign up with a local high school or enterprise administering the exam you can take the AP subject exams. Students in middle school and home school sign up for various AP exams (e.g. Calculus BC and Physics A,B, C); take the exams and some actually attain 5s. Some high school students will study over the summer and take AP exams in May for subjects they have not signed up for in the school year. It's a great way to bypass poorly taught courses or get advanced placement into honors courses in high school. A score of a 5 on one of these exams carries a lot of weight in high school regardless of whether you actually took a high school course or not.

Taking and passing the AP exam is not solely a function of what a particular school offers. Many enterprising families and their children take AP exams without registering for any courses. It has proven an excellent strategy for some students sculpturing their middle and high school curricular pathway. It's a great way (option) to circumnavigate bureaucracy at private and public institutions.

[Anonymous]

PSAT/NM less so because it's generally compulsory for college bound HS students. AP scores definitely because they are a function of what a particular school offers.

I take exception to your conclusion about the AP exam. Taking the AP exam does not require taking an AP or honors course. You do not have to take any course for that matter. If you have a check book and sign up with a local high school or enterprise administering the exam you can take the AP subject exams. Students in middle school and home school sign up for various AP exams (e.g. Calculus BC and Physics A,B, C); take the exams and some actually attain 5s. Some high school students will study over the summer and take AP exams in May for subjects they have not signed up for in the school year. It's a great way to bypass poorly taught courses or get advanced placement into honors courses in high school. A score of a 5 on one of these exams carries a lot of weight in high school regardless of whether you actually took a high school course or not.

Taking and passing the AP exam is not solely a function of what a particular school offers. Many enterprising families and their children take AP exams without registering for any courses. It has proven an excellent strategy for some students sculpturing their middle and high school curricular pathway. It's a great way (option) to circumnavigate bureaucracy at private and public institutions.

[Anonymous]

excuse the multiple posts here. stuck keys.

[Anonymous]

The difference between (some) publics and (some) privates is differentiation in elementary school math instruction. It ceases to be a difference in MS/HS because privates generally do differentiate at that point (not because publics cease to).

Re the AP -- if it's not compulsory or random, it's a form of self-selection which leads to sampling problems when the self-selection process varies across schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 11:05 was referring to the results of some math competition program in which TPMS did well and in which many of the privates didn't even participate. Basically, she was saying there's sampling bias (of unknowable types) so the data isn't useful for comparative purposes (which has been previously argued re public vs. private test scores from the NCES (hope I got the name right) db posted in this thread).

I think if the sample is the entire population of kids in given grades doing math and science, then there is no bias. You've got a large sample that includes X number of private school kids, Y number of magnet kids, and Z number of non-public magnet kids. Like any statistical test, you're measuring the impact of some independent variable (type of school, in this case) on a dependent outcome (success at the national tests). This is analogous to looking at the effect of a placebo vs. test drug on the health outcomes in a given population. You couldn't argue that the drug/placebo test is invalid because they are two different things - in fact having different independent variables is really the point of any test.

If what we're trying to measure is the effectiveness of the education a given school provides, then I would agree that there could be other other variables that explain things better. IQ comes to mind, and because magnet admissions and the privates' WPSSI tests are both based on IQ it might be possible to investigate this, but we'll never get the data from the schools. There may be other variables we should be controlling for (socio-economic status? Although magnet kids are pretty upper middle class), maybe you can suggest some.

However, I absolutely don't buy that particular poster's argument that it all boils down to differences between schools in the area of: parents/teachers/principals all pushing kids to a greater degree in magnets than in top privates. These boards are ample testimony to the pressure parents put on private school kids, for one thing.

Well, this particular contest may not be taken seriously, and possibly for good reason. It does not seem to help with ivy admissions. I have never even heard of it, and one of my kids is in private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The difference between (some) publics and (some) privates is differentiation in elementary school math instruction. It ceases to be a difference in MS/HS because privates generally do differentiate at that point (not because publics cease to).

Do private middle schools differentiate enough to offer math at levels 2 or more years ahead, like most public middles do for about 5% of their kids, starting in ES and continuing through MS and HS? I'm taking about outside the magnets, where kids like my kid in an immersion school and about 5-10% of the other kids in DC's class did math 2 years ahead. If the privates don't do this, then you really can't claim that they're the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between (some) publics and (some) privates is differentiation in elementary school math instruction. It ceases to be a difference in MS/HS because privates generally do differentiate at that point (not because publics cease to).

Do private middle schools differentiate enough to offer math at levels 2 or more years ahead, like most public middles do for about 5% of their kids, starting in ES and continuing through MS and HS? I'm taking about outside the magnets, where kids like my kid in an immersion school and about 5-10% of the other kids in DC's class did math 2 years ahead. If the privates don't do this, then you really can't claim that they're the same.

Should clarify, because you seem to miss the point (intentionally?): this two year advancement in public schools (not just magnets) continues in MS and HS. Contrary to what you claim, the difference between publics and privates doesn't go away in MS and HS.

Was it Winston Churchill, or somebody else, who said something along the lines of "you can't make a man understand something he doesn't want to understand".

I see most of the other posters have bailed on trying to make the same points, over and over again, to a dense but determined poster who doesn't want to read other peoples' posts; apparently can't process other posts; and makes spurious arguments about sampling error (defined incorrectly in order to suit her needs) existing in some comparison of schools. I get it now, you just "don't want to understand." I'm out of here, too.

[Anonymous]

You have some serious reading comprehension problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between (some) publics and (some) privates is differentiation in elementary school math instruction. It ceases to be a difference in MS/HS because privates generally do differentiate at that point (not because publics cease to).

Do private middle schools differentiate enough to offer math at levels 2 or more years ahead, like most public middles do for about 5% of their kids, starting in ES and continuing through MS and HS? I'm taking about outside the magnets, where kids like my kid in an immersion school and about 5-10% of the other kids in DC's class did math 2 years ahead. If the privates don't do this, then you really can't claim that they're the same.

Not the same, but does that mean publics are better? I know two of these two years ahead kids. One scored a 600 on her math SATs. The other has not had her chance yet. The kid across the street at an OK private in Potomac, scored 670 on the math, and only did calc. in 12th grade.

[Anonymous]

Oh gawddddd, here we go again. Some anecdotal evidence in support of yet another attempt to launch us into yet another big, overblown--and definitely over-rehearsed on DCUM--debate about public versus private.

Do yourselves a favor, and stay away. If you're a glutton for punishment, read some of the many other DCUM threads on this subject. Or just go back and read (unlike PP who apparently didn't) the preceding 9 pages on this thread.

[Anonymous]

My DC's private doesn't differentiate math instruction until 7th grade and HS math courses include two years of coursework beyond AP calculus (BC).

[Anonymous]

Well, this particular contest may not be taken seriously, and possibly for good reason. It does not seem to help with ivy admissions. I have never even heard of it, and one of my kids is in private school.

Have you taking a look at MIT application lately (also Cal Tech)? Note Harvard competes for the same "Math" students as Princeton, MIT, University of Chicago and Stanford.

Some schools reserve a slot for AMC, AIME, and USAMO scores. Many prestigious summer programs for high school students also give students the opportunity to report these scores on national and international math contests (e.g, RSI, Math Path to name a few)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the question is silly. We went into an independent school thinking that the cohort would be superior for lack of a better word. It is not a particularly advanced group and won't be until perhaps the 4th or 6th grade when admissions opens up again. At the moment, there are a lot of staff and legacy kids, and they really do take up a lot of teacher time bringing them up to speed and managing their behavior.

What are you suggesting about "staff and legacy kids"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the question is silly. We went into an independent school thinking that the cohort would be superior for lack of a better word. It is not a particularly advanced group and won't be until perhaps the 4th or 6th grade when admissions opens up again. At the moment, there are a lot of staff and legacy kids, and they really do take up a lot of teacher time bringing them up to speed and managing their behavior.

What are you suggesting about "staff and legacy kids"?

I think the PP was saying that the independent schools cannot apply the same standards to staff and legacy kids as they do to new families. Everyone knows this and there is no argument about it. They cannot apply the same standards because they need to retain their staff and keep alumnae happy so that money keeps coming in. Staff and legacy kids typically are not as bright and are not necessarily well behaved. Of course they can be extremely bright and well behaved, but its an incidental rather than a necessary fact of admission. In fact, these kids can be admitted even when they have significantly disruptive behaviors. For the cognitive side, the staff and legacy kids hold the class back because the teacher has to teach to the lowest common denominator. Sometimes I do wonder why on earth we are paying so much money so that DD twiddles her thumbs in kindergarten while the connected children learn to count to 20.