Independent schools and "advanced" kids: national problem?

[Anonymous]

13:07 ... you are funny! In fact, I think I know you which only makes your comments funnier!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer the question in much broader terms, yes this is a problem, and it's one reason why the US isn't producing top scholars in math. Math instruction in the US, compared to the rest of the world, is weak, and my impression is that it is weaker still in independent schools. I don't think math is a selling point for independent school parents the way in-depth language arts and history and art and music and theater are. A lot of math instruction looks dry and drill-like, and that's part of what parents are trying to avoid by going private. I just toured privates and I was amazed by how frankly I was told that they rarely differentiate in math ("because our curriculum is so rich"). Didn't like it, but for me it wasn't a dealbreaker.

Yes, I heard that too. I spend the money for private school, and I am still up at night supplementing math. I get really nervous even talking about math with the staff. THEY really don't seem to get it. They keep thinking parents want to hear about experiential math.

[Anonymous]

Re comments about teachers kids, I struggle with this. I agree with PP that its an important benefit to retain good staff and also the right thing for the schools to do. It definitely does result in difficulties in the classroom and its difficult to watch when DC is in a classroom where the teacher's efforts are largely spent on these kids. It would be helpful if the independent schools were more willing to differentiate for the kids who are ahead and well-behaved, but they generally are not. I do think Montgomery County just does this better in elementary school. There should be a way to have academic and behavioral diversity without sacrificing academic excellence.

[Anonymous]

What is amazing about the above tone is that, for some reason, staff and legacy kids should NOT be there. BS!! For one, private school teachers generally get paid less than their public school colleagues, and no doubt are getting paid less than most of the parents who send their kids to private schools. As a recruitment and retention benefit (among others), teachers should have the opportunity to have their children attend if the school chooses to provide that benefit. We should welcome that!! For two, the notion that you are "entitled" to send your kid to some "top" private school simply because he or she has scored well on some WIPPSI, WISC or SSAT test is ridiculous. The entitlement mentality is mind boggling. Legacy kids and their families are far more likely to provide long-term financial AND other benefits to the private school than a family whose child attends for a few years before moving on to the next phase. Moreover, legacy families are one of the means to preserve the school culture, which presumably is at least one reason why you are interested in the school. At the end, it is obviously a balancing act, between paying families and FA families, between new and old blood, between super smart and reasonably smart kids, etc. The school has the right to make that balancing act.

It's not that I disagree with you; I mostly agree.

And yet. Somehow there are 2 or possibly 3 high schools in the area -- Sidwell is one -- that, by the time the kids are in 12th grade, have mind-boggling-ly strong classes. Or cohorts, or whatever we all decide to label them. In the very same school(s), the K or 3rd grade group of kids is not as head-snappingly smart (because those grades are full of teachers kids, donors, siblings, adorable Senators' kids). Put another way, and put bluntly, the matriculating class is very different than the 1st grade class. Expansion doesn't explain the entirety of this phenom, and anyone who has had a child at Sidwell for more than ~7 years will be nodding along with me.

So again, I kind of agree with your larger points. But the reality is in some schools, those special-case kids not infrequently get counseled out, or choose to switch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re comments about teachers kids, I struggle with this. I agree with PP that its an important benefit to retain good staff and also the right thing for the schools to do. It definitely does result in difficulties in the classroom and its difficult to watch when DC is in a classroom where the teacher's efforts are largely spent on these kids. It would be helpful if the independent schools were more willing to differentiate for the kids who are ahead and well-behaved, but they generally are not. I do think Montgomery County just does this better in elementary school. There should be a way to have academic and behavioral diversity without sacrificing academic excellence.

MCPS does a better job with discipline all around. They (MCPS) use suspension all the time. I don't think I know of once instance where a child was suspended from our private school. That said, I can think of many who were asked to leave permanently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So my middle schooler was at a Mont Co ES magnet (the oldest one) for 4 and 5, and is now is at a Big 3 (and considered the MC middle school magnet. So I have a direct comparison. All are excellent, but there are differences.
At magnet, cohort was phenomenal. Teachers just incredible, so committed. Kids -so very smart. Mostly 1st generation kids (largely Chinese heritage), and the culture of school was to pile on a huge amount of homework that was very challenge, which accepted by the families. I didn't like the HW; loved the level of challenge. Math acceleration standard, and DC went to the local MS with the most advanced group. The teacher was mediocre. Science - wonderful despite crappy facility. Language arts - really good, but pretty rote. No foreign langauge, as standard.

Now at Big 3: Cohort more varied, and generally less strong. Mostly children of professionals, many elites. Math pretty weak. Science really very good. Language arts and history - really superb. Teachers - I can't imagine any better at a private school.

In sum: both experiences have been great, child happy, learning a lot, each with unique strengths. Take your pick - can't go wrong, it seems to me.

We did't go to TPMS because my feeling was that the emphasis on math-science AT THE EXPENSE OF LANGUAGE ARTS is not what we wanted. DC still does lots of math on own.

Our child is at the TPMS magnet and that is not our experience at all. Math/science is fantastic but not at the expense of language arts.

[Anonymous]

Here are some recent math contest results for 6th, 7th, and 8th grades:
http://www.themathleague.com/downloads/nolastnames/MD-GS-NLN-0809.pdf

It seems some private schools have no trouble keeping up with even the math-magnet public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here are some recent math contest results for 6th, 7th, and 8th grades:
http://www.themathleague.com/downloads/nolastnames/MD-GS-NLN-0809.pdf

It seems some private schools have no trouble keeping up with even the math-magnet public schools.

Not impressed. BTW, it still doesn't mean that the schools are teaching well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are some recent math contest results for 6th, 7th, and 8th grades:
http://www.themathleague.com/downloads/nolastnames/MD-GS-NLN-0809.pdf

It seems some private schools have no trouble keeping up with even the math-magnet public schools.

Not impressed. BTW, it still doesn't mean that the schools are teaching well.

Of course you're not impressed -- it's actual data that doesn't fit your preconceived claim. I'll wait for you to post some counter-data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We did't go to TPMS because my feeling was that the emphasis on math-science AT THE EXPENSE OF LANGUAGE ARTS is not what we wanted. DC still does lots of math on own.

Our child is at the TPMS magnet and that is not our experience at all. Math/science is fantastic but not at the expense of language arts.

Another TPMS magnet family here. (Maybe we know each other?) I agree with this statement. The magnet kids are put into honors english, which is fine, at least compared to the private elementary we have experience with. I wouldn't say it meets my every hope and dream but, compared to the well-regarded private elementary, it stands up just fine.

The kids also start taking a foreign language in 6th grade when they enter TPMS. Too late to start a foreign language, I agree. But the kids do have a choice between regular MS foreign language and advanced foreign language for which they get HS credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS does a better job with discipline all around. They (MCPS) use suspension all the time. I don't think I know of once instance where a child was suspended from our private school. That said, I can think of many who were asked to leave permanently.

The discipline issues may be just different. Rich kid problems, versus poor kid problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here are some recent math contest results for 6th, 7th, and 8th grades:
http://www.themathleague.com/downloads/nolastnames/MD-GS-NLN-0809.pdf

It seems some private schools have no trouble keeping up with even the math-magnet public schools.

Thank you for posting this. Does Takoma middle school refer to the magnet? Among the top independents in DC, I see Sidwell and NCS is up there, particularly the former. Green Acres, Bullis, and others show up although not as much. Where is St Albans, GDS, Maret? Did they not participate or does their math programs simply not match up to the requirement of this league? I am hoping that the poster who put up this information might know the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re comments about teachers kids, I struggle with this. I agree with PP that its an important benefit to retain good staff and also the right thing for the schools to do. It definitely does result in difficulties in the classroom and its difficult to watch when DC is in a classroom where the teacher's efforts are largely spent on these kids. It would be helpful if the independent schools were more willing to differentiate for the kids who are ahead and well-behaved, but they generally are not. I do think Montgomery County just does this better in elementary school. There should be a way to have academic and behavioral diversity without sacrificing academic excellence.

I find this a little mind-boggling: the teachers are sufficiently capable to work at a prestigious independent, but their offspring are lagging in academics and have behavioural problems?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re comments about teachers kids, I struggle with this. I agree with PP that its an important benefit to retain good staff and also the right thing for the schools to do. It definitely does result in difficulties in the classroom and its difficult to watch when DC is in a classroom where the teacher's efforts are largely spent on these kids. It would be helpful if the independent schools were more willing to differentiate for the kids who are ahead and well-behaved, but they generally are not. I do think Montgomery County just does this better in elementary school. There should be a way to have academic and behavioral diversity without sacrificing academic excellence.

I find this a little mind-boggling: the teachers are sufficiently capable to work at a prestigious independent, but their offspring are lagging in academics and have behavioural problems?

For us it was moot as spouse's Big Three employer didn't offer any subsidy for faculty children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are some recent math contest results for 6th, 7th, and 8th grades:
http://www.themathleague.com/downloads/nolastnames/MD-GS-NLN-0809.pdf

It seems some private schools have no trouble keeping up with even the math-magnet public schools.

Thank you for posting this. Does Takoma middle school refer to the magnet? Among the top independents in DC, I see Sidwell and NCS is up there, particularly the former. Green Acres, Bullis, and others show up although not as much. Where is St Albans, GDS, Maret? Did they not participate or does their math programs simply not match up to the requirement of this league? I am hoping that the poster who put up this information might know the answer.

I posted the data, and I do not know the answer. However, it appears that the Math League is basically a for-profit contest -- schools must buy the contest materials, give students the tests, and then send in the results for scoring. I suspect a lot of math teachers don't really want to spend the money to buy the contest materials (or don't really care, or maybe just participate in a different contest). I also wonder if there is a numbers advantage that certain schools have -- in other words, if a large school with 200 6th graders participates in the contest, it likely will have a better chance of a top score than a smaller school with only 40 6th graders.

I apologize that I don't have more answers. I know there is some public school math teacher (I think at TPMS) who posts to DCUM sometimes about various math contests -- maybe she will have more info to post for us.