Independent schools and "advanced" kids: national problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well, this particular contest may not be taken seriously, and possibly for good reason. It does not seem to help with ivy admissions. I have never even heard of it, and one of my kids is in private school.

Have you taking a look at MIT application lately (also Cal Tech)? Note Harvard competes for the same "Math" students as Princeton, MIT, University of Chicago and Stanford.

If your kid is not a math kid, you wouldn't have heard of these exams. Believe me, the big math/science schools come find the kids who do well on these exams, are actively aware and recruit them. It is pretty public knowledge for them. If you child is not a math child, for example, you wouldn't know that the first offering of these math exams (AMC 10.12) got snowed out last week, and they will take it the 2nd time offered. If you care, you care. If you're programmed not to care because your kid isn't interested or particularly good at these things, you will not notice.

[Anonymous]

http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e8-usamo/e8-1-usamoarchive/2009-ua/2009usamo-highest.shtml

I did know a couple of successful Math Olympiad participants in my Harvard undergrad class, so I'm willing to believe that being a USAMO honoree is an accomplishment that gives a student a competitive edge when applying to elite universities. But, at most, that's 25 kids nationwide in any given year.

Last year, 2 of those 25 were from MD and neither lives in Takoma Park. (One's from PG county; the other is from Rockville and went to Wootton rather than Blair -- whose magnet would be the more likely path for a TPMS magnet graduate, right?).

That said, it's quite a stretch to think that getting a perfect score on even a very challenging multiple choice math test in middle school is anyone's ticket into the highly selective college of his or her choice. Colleges don't really care what you're doing/how you are "ranked" in MS -- the question generally is what you're doing by junior year of HS. If success in MS isn't followed up by comparable success in HS, then it's meaningless.

You seem to feel as if participation in the AMC program is your child's only hope of acceptance to an elite college and, for all I know about your child, that may be true. It's great that TPMS's magnet program does well in the AMC 8, but this is just one extracurricular among many -- it's not some fast track or litmus test for anything.

[Anonymous]

10:20, you make no sense. Why are staff + legacy kids "typically...not as bright and...not necessarily well behaved"? Why would this cohort more likely be dumb and boorish than any other group of applicants?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: ...That said, it's quite a stretch to think that getting a perfect score on even a very challenging multiple choice math test in middle school is anyone's ticket into the highly selective college of his or her choice.

You seem to feel as if participation in the AMC program is your child's only hope of acceptance to an elite college and, for all I know about your child, that may be true. It's great that TPMS's magnet program does well in the AMC 8, but this is just one extracurricular among many -- it's not some fast track or litmus test for anything.

Just to clarify, and I sense you know this, the USAMO is for high school, and AMC 10/12 are too, so that is different from AMC 8/middle schoolers. So I wasn't suggesting that college's look at AMC 8 scores. As for whether participating in AMC is a child's only hope of acceptance to elite schools, that isn't really what I said. I was responding to the PP who said colleges don't pay attention to these scores, and PP had never heard of them (implying they must be useless), which is not the same as saying it is the only route to elites. That would be absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well, this particular contest may not be taken seriously, and possibly for good reason. It does not seem to help with ivy admissions. I have never even heard of it, and one of my kids is in private school.

Have you taking a look at MIT application lately (also Cal Tech)? Note Harvard competes for the same "Math" students as Princeton, MIT, University of Chicago and Stanford.

Some schools reserve a slot for AMC, AIME, and USAMO scores. Many prestigious summer programs for high school students also give students the opportunity to report these scores on national and international math contests (e.g, RSI, Math Path to name a few)

But I bet that SAT scores, GPA, and AP test results matter more.

[Anonymous]

If your kid is not a math kid, you wouldn't have heard of these exams. Believe me, the big math/science schools come find the kids who do well on these exams, are actively aware and recruit them. It is pretty public knowledge for them. If you child is not a math child, for example, you wouldn't know that the first offering of these math exams (AMC 10.12) got snowed out last week, and they will take it the 2nd time offered. If you care, you care. If you're programmed not to care because your kid isn't interested or particularly good at these things, you will not notice.

What point are you making here save acknowledgement (as several posters have already stated) that very competitive colleges and universities are well aware of these prestigious competitions down to having an entry on the application form for students to actually type or write in their scores (much like entries for GPA, AP and SAT scores).

Yes, those in the know are well aware that AMC 10 A exams were cancelled at Wootton High so my 8 year-old (3rd grader) is taking the AMC 10 B at Montgomery College later this month. What's the big deal, except to emphasize, with acceleration in Math in the public school system (or private for that matter) it is important to supplement with problem solving skills (the math compettitions provide a solid extracurricular base for this) to avoid any gaps in fundamental knowledge. Kids that do this through elementary, middle and high school rarely encounter any problems in mathematics because of their acceleration early in school. Math training is the gateway to any future substantial understanding of economics, statistics, science, engineering, computing and technology.

[Anonymous]

What point are you making here save acknowledgement (as several posters have already stated) that very competitive colleges and universities are well aware of these prestigious competitions down to having an entry on the application form for students to actually type or write in their scores (much like entries for GPA, AP and SAT scores).

Yes, those in the know are well aware that AMC 10 A exams were cancelled at Wootton High so my 8 year-old (3rd grader) is taking the AMC 10 B at Montgomery College later this month. What's the big deal, except to emphasize, with acceleration in Math in the public school system (or private for that matter) it is important to supplement with problem solving skills (the math compettitions provide a solid extracurricular base for this) to avoid any gaps in fundamental knowledge. Kids that do this through elementary, middle and high school rarely encounter any problems in mathematics because of their acceleration early in school. Math training is the gateway to any future substantial understanding of economics, statistics, science, engineering, computing and technology.

My child is not a "math kid" whatever you mean by this despite excelling in this area. He is an voracious reader and loves languages, history and science/fantasy fiction.

[Anonymous]

I did know a couple of successful Math Olympiad participants in my Harvard undergrad class, so I'm willing to believe that being a USAMO honoree is an accomplishment that gives a student a competitive edge when applying to elite universities. But, at most, that's 25 kids nationwide in any given year.

Last year, 2 of those 25 were from MD and neither lives in Takoma Park. (One's from PG county; the other is from Rockville and went to Wootton rather than Blair -- whose magnet would be the more likely path for a TPMS magnet graduate, right?).

That said, it's quite a stretch to think that getting a perfect score on even a very challenging multiple choice math test in middle school is anyone's ticket into the highly selective college of his or her choice. Colleges don't really care what you're doing/how you are "ranked" in MS -- the question generally is what you're doing by junior year of HS. If success in MS isn't followed up by comparable success in HS, then it's meaningless.

You seem to feel as if participation in the AMC program is your child's only hope of acceptance to an elite college and, for all I know about your child, that may be true. It's great that TPMS's magnet program does well in the AMC 8, but this is just one extracurricular among many -- it's not some fast track or litmus test for anything.

I am not a TPMS or AMC booster. But, the facts speak for themselves. These kids do extraordinarily well on national and international math competitions. The majority of these kids move on to Blair High School Magnet proogram. The kids in the Blair High School Magnet Program do extraordinarily well in the high school national and international math competitions (much like TJ students in Virgina and the students at Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire). Forty percent of the Blair High School magnet group recieve National Merit Finalists honors (as well as AP scholar honors and perfect SAT scores...much like TJ in Virginia). A strong positive correlation between performance in middle school national and international math competitions (TPMS the feeder school) and performance in subsequent high school national and international math compettitions (Blair High Magnet) is a simple as elementary mathematics ...1,2,3. That almost half of these students (over the last decade) go on to become National Merit Finalists (like TJ students in Virgina) should be no surprise to those in the know.

No one has suggested, but you, that participation in AMC is a child's only hope of acceptance to an elite college. That's plainly absurd. But, participation in AMC at an early age (just like in lacrosse, soccer, crew, violin, piano, figure skating, spelling Bee, Geography Bee and languages) may provide a spark, passion, confidence and interest in Math at an early age regardless of whether your child's ultimate avocation is quantum physics, investment banking or casino gambling.

[Anonymous]

But I bet that SAT scores, GPA, and AP test results matter more.

Yes, but here's an irony or paradox for you. The kids that are topping out on AMC 8,10,12, AIME, USAMO are many of the same kids at the top of the charts on SAT scores, GPA, and AP test results.

Go figure!

[Anonymous]

PP, I don't understand your point.

Also, perhaps I am misunderstanding you -- you aren't claiming that half of the Blair Magnet and TJ Magnet students are Nat'l Merit Finalists, are you? I know that's not accurate, so I must me misunderstanding you.

[Anonymous]

PP, I don't understand your point.

Also, perhaps I am misunderstanding you -- you aren't claiming that half of the Blair Magnet and TJ Magnet students are Nat'l Merit Finalists, are you? I know that's not accurate, so I must me misunderstanding you.

For the most recent National Merit Scho;larship Program (2010) there were 53 NM semi-finalist out of a magnet group of 100 students. A useful rule of thumb: about 70% of semi-finalists go on to become finalists. TJ and Blair usually run neck and neck in proportion over the last decade. I think you can do the research. It's within your finger tips.

Google: National Merit Finalists for 2009 in MD. It will give you the numbers for every institution in MD. (any state or any year you wish)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e8-usamo/e8-1-usamoarchive/2009-ua/2009usamo-highest.shtml

I did know a couple of successful Math Olympiad participants in my Harvard undergrad class, so I'm willing to believe that being a USAMO honoree is an accomplishment that gives a student a competitive edge when applying to elite universities. But, at most, that's 25 kids nationwide in any given year.

Last year, 2 of those 25 were from MD and neither lives in Takoma Park. (One's from PG county; the other is from Rockville and went to Wootton rather than Blair -- whose magnet would be the more likely path for a TPMS magnet graduate, right?).

That said, it's quite a stretch to think that getting a perfect score on even a very challenging multiple choice math test in middle school is anyone's ticket into the highly selective college of his or her choice. Colleges don't really care what you're doing/how you are "ranked" in MS -- the question generally is what you're doing by junior year of HS. If success in MS isn't followed up by comparable success in HS, then it's meaningless.

You seem to feel as if participation in the AMC program is your child's only hope of acceptance to an elite college and, for all I know about your child, that may be true. It's great that TPMS's magnet program does well in the AMC 8, but this is just one extracurricular among many -- it's not some fast track or litmus test for anything.

New poster here. And one who's astonished by the degree of misrepresentation in this post, and sympathetic to the poster this is responding to. That poster is seemingly more patient with your bad behavior than I'm willing to be. What is the point of the spiteful comparison between Rockville and Blair? Why sneer at a program that is comparable to any other extra curricular, such as sports or the arts, in terms of the role it plays in a child's life, and which, like these other extracurriculars, may actually turn out to be an inspiration for the HS performance you're apparently so focussed on? Why the completely unnecessary reference to your Harvard undergraduate days? And why, oh why, was it necessary to snark (verb?) that PP's child's only hope for an elite college may rest on something s/he did in MS?

Just asking.

[Anonymous]

New poster here. And one who's astonished by the degree of misrepresentation in this post, and sympathetic to the poster this is responding to. That poster is seemingly more patient with your bad behavior than I'm willing to be. What is the point of the spiteful comparison between Rockville and Blair? Why sneer at a program that is comparable to any other extra curricular, such as sports or the arts, in terms of the role it plays in a child's life, and which, like these other extracurriculars, may actually turn out to be an inspiration for the HS performance you're apparently so focussed on? Why the completely unnecessary reference to your Harvard undergraduate days? And why, oh why, was it necessary to snark (verb?) that PP's child's only hope for an elite college may rest on something s/he did in MS?

Just asking.

Do you think the poster you are responding to got into Harvard (assuming this is truth and not fantasy) because of a high GPA or SAT or AP scores?

[Anonymous]

I did know a couple of successful Math Olympiad participants in my Harvard undergrad class, so I'm willing to believe that being a USAMO honoree is an accomplishment that gives a student a competitive edge when applying to elite universities. But, at most, that's 25 kids nationwide in any given year.

Last year, 2 of those 25 were from MD and neither lives in Takoma Park. (One's from PG county; the other is from Rockville and went to Wootton rather than Blair -- whose magnet would be the more likely path for a TPMS magnet graduate, right?).

That said, it's quite a stretch to think that getting a perfect score on even a very challenging multiple choice math test in middle school is anyone's ticket into the highly selective college of his or her choice. Colleges don't really care what you're doing/how you are "ranked" in MS -- the question generally is what you're doing by junior year of HS. If success in MS isn't followed up by comparable success in HS, then it's meaningless.

You seem to feel as if participation in the AMC program is your child's only hope of acceptance to an elite college and, for all I know about your child, that may be true. It's great that TPMS's magnet program does well in the AMC 8, but this is just one extracurricular among many -- it's not some fast track or litmus test for anything.

The poster has one fact correct. Wootton, like Blair magnet, is another area public school that gives most area private schools are run for their money!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

New poster here. And one who's astonished by the degree of misrepresentation in this post, and sympathetic to the poster this is responding to. That poster is seemingly more patient with your bad behavior than I'm willing to be. What is the point of the spiteful comparison between Rockville and Blair? Why sneer at a program that is comparable to any other extra curricular, such as sports or the arts, in terms of the role it plays in a child's life, and which, like these other extracurriculars, may actually turn out to be an inspiration for the HS performance you're apparently so focussed on? Why the completely unnecessary reference to your Harvard undergraduate days? And why, oh why, was it necessary to snark (verb?) that PP's child's only hope for an elite college may rest on something s/he did in MS?

Just asking.

Do you think the poster you are responding to got into Harvard (assuming this is truth and not fantasy) because of a high GPA or SAT or AP scores?

Hard to tell. She messed up by putting a period after a parenthetical phrase. (Suggesting, by the way, that this poster studied math/science rather than liberal arts.) In general, she has some degree of comfort with details, but she lacks that overall grasp of the "big picture" that, in combination with the details, demonstrates true mastery. So the Harvard education can legitimately be questioned.