Independent schools and "advanced" kids: national problem?

[Anonymous]

Are there any science privates?

[Anonymous]

I don't understand why we are comparing MCPS magnet for science and math to more general private schools. A better comparison would be a science private to TPMS.

Takoma Park middle school magnet is a general middle school with a particular emphasis in mathematics, computer science and science. As I understand from reading these posts area D.C. private schools are general private schools with a particular emphasis in sports, music, arts and language?

All these subjects and areas of interest are offered at both TPMS and private school, the difference is one of frequency, degree and depth?

[Anonymous]

Depends on the private, but many have strong science and math programs as well as arts, humanities, and sports.

Basically, there seem to be two main differences. Some public schools differentiate math instruction earlier than some privates -- that's primarily an elementary school phenomenon.

And in HS at two selective admission countywide magnets (TJ and Blair) there are more kinds of science offered because the schools are larger and emphasize science. Since the privates have more than enough advanced science and math courses to keep a highly gifted kid engaged for four years, the difference is choice rather than challenge and the size of the cohort.

No one is compromising their brilliant/highly advanced/budding Einstein child's education by choosing either option.

[Anonymous]

The point is that the competition that was noted on this thread is not proof about the quality of education at any school. As mentioned, participation in these things can range from zero, or a parent corralling some students who have some time on their hands to participate, all the way to the entire school principal and teachers prepping their best kids for the event. So, we should be careful about comparisons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The point is that the competition that was noted on this thread is not proof about the quality of education at any school. As mentioned, participation in these things can range from zero, or a parent corralling some students who have some time on their hands to participate, all the way to the entire school principal and teachers prepping their best kids for the event. So, we should be careful about comparisons.

I'm missing your point completely, perhaps you can elaborate. What competition are you talking about - between kids, or between public and private schools? Also, your "point" seems to be that none of the kids are participating "voluntarily", instead you offer the following outcomes: zero participation, parent-corralled participation, or teacher-and-principal-corralled participation. With the implications that (a) no kid actually wants to do science, and (b) and high test scores are all down to parent/teacher/principal force-feeding of science to students, with the outcome in various schools depending only on the degree of this force-feeding, instead of on the students' own brilliance and interest. I beg to differ!

[Anonymous]

I think 11:05 was referring to the results of some math competition program in which TPMS did well and in which many of the privates didn't even participate. Basically, she was saying there's sampling bias (of unknowable types) so the data isn't useful for comparative purposes (which has been previously argued re public vs. private test scores from the NCES (hope I got the name right) db posted in this thread).

[Anonymous]

I think 11:05 was referring to the results of some math competition program in which TPMS did well and in which many of the privates didn't even participate. Basically, she was saying there's sampling bias (of unknowable types) so the data isn't useful for comparative purposes (which has been previously argued re public vs. private test scores from the NCES (hope I got the name right) db posted in this thread).

Is there any sampling bias with regards regards reporting of national merit finalists and AP scores or is this bias solely restricted to national math and science/technology competitions?

[Anonymous]

I don't really see the usefulness of comparing public vs. private schools generally. To me, it makes more sense to compare specific publics vs specific privates that are (potentially) available to you and that seem like good fits for you DCs' needs, interests, and abilities.

So if you live in or are willing to move to Fairfax and you're trying to decide between TJ and Sidwell for your kid, that's a sensible question (whose answer will depend on the kid).

[Anonymous]

PSAT/NM less so because it's generally compulsory for college bound HS students. AP scores definitely because they are a function of what a particular school offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think 11:05 was referring to the results of some math competition program in which TPMS did well and in which many of the privates didn't even participate. Basically, she was saying there's sampling bias (of unknowable types) so the data isn't useful for comparative purposes (which has been previously argued re public vs. private test scores from the NCES (hope I got the name right) db posted in this thread).

I think if the sample is the entire population of kids in given grades doing math and science, then there is no bias. You've got a large sample that includes X number of private school kids, Y number of magnet kids, and Z number of non-public magnet kids. Like any statistical test, you're measuring the impact of some independent variable (type of school, in this case) on a dependent outcome (success at the national tests). This is analogous to looking at the effect of a placebo vs. test drug on the health outcomes in a given population. You couldn't argue that the drug/placebo test is invalid because they are two different things - in fact having different independent variables is really the point of any test.

If what we're trying to measure is the effectiveness of the education a given school provides, then I would agree that there could be other other variables that explain things better. IQ comes to mind, and because magnet admissions and the privates' WPSSI tests are both based on IQ it might be possible to investigate this, but we'll never get the data from the schools. There may be other variables we should be controlling for (socio-economic status? Although magnet kids are pretty upper middle class), maybe you can suggest some.

However, I absolutely don't buy that particular poster's argument that it all boils down to differences between schools in the area of: parents/teachers/principals all pushing kids to a greater degree in magnets than in top privates. These boards are ample testimony to the pressure parents put on private school kids, for one thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Basically, there seem to be two main differences. Some public schools differentiate math instruction earlier than some privates -- that's primarily an elementary school phenomenon.

And in HS at two selective admission countywide magnets (TJ and Blair) there are more kinds of science offered because the schools are larger and emphasize science. Since the privates have more than enough advanced science and math courses to keep a highly gifted kid engaged for four years, the difference is choice rather than challenge and the size of the cohort.

Actually, in publics the differentiation begins in elementary, but it carries on to MS and HS. It isn't "primarily and ES phenomenon" because the schools wouldn't make kids repeat a grade as soon as they hit MS or ES together.

[Anonymous]

12:27 Not all publics differentiate in elementary school. Some that do don't start until Fifth Grade.

[Anonymous]

I believe that in MoCo, elementary school runs through 5th grade, and MS runs from 6-8. Nit-picking, I know!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No one is compromising their brilliant/highly advanced/budding Einstein child's education by choosing either option.

Except ... several parents have posted here to say that they took their kids out of top 3s to put them in magnets, and the families are much happier with the magnets. Now I don't know exactly how to quantify these kids' "happiness", but there seems to be something going on here.

[Anonymous]

Overall, I think one good example of sampling bias is to use the anecdotes posted on DCUM as though they are quantifiable data.