Yale discriminated against whites and Asians, per Justice Department

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still fascinated that some Asians find comfort in having white supremacists on their side on college admissions. Luckily most of us understand that those who don't want African-Americans in elite colleges would be happy to bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act.

+1. They're just using Asian-Americans here.

Asian American kids are discriminated in college admissions - it is fact.

Lol: You get that saying “it is fact” (sic) doesn’t make it one, right? So the least you could do is throw in some supporting data or something.
Also, showing that there are students with great grades, nice extra curricular activities, and wonderful test scores who don’t get accepted by Yale, or wherever, isn’t saying anything since there are a lot of Valedictorians with good scores who apply.

OP — you’re making a great point.

My guess is that Yale is thrilled to get more students like Maya Lin — who are brilliant, creative individuals, and somewhat less thrilled to get students of any background who don’t stand out from the crowd of hardworking valedictorians who write essays about their over supervised community service projects.

I can't believe that anyone still believes that Asians aren't discriminated against in the admissions process. Can you imagine the outrage if AA applicants had to score significantly higher on the SAT than everyone else? They would go insane! You must be a justice warrior type to be in such denial.

The important thing here is that test scores aren’t the important thing.

Right discount the only objective measure out of many because it doesn’t fit with the narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That may begin to change very soon when we have our first asian american vice president!

She doesn’t identify herself as Asian.

she speaks of her indian mom and says her mom understood that they would be treated as african american girls but she describes herself as the child of an indian born mom and a jamaican born dad.

And 99% of news articles and media coverage refer to her as black or African American which is misleading and the reason Why some people call them fake news.

Huh? Obama is half white but it is not fake news to describe him as our african american president.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Exactly. This admission officer is fighting for this kid with perfect sat scores. This admission officer is fighting for this kid that invented a robot that can walk the dog. This admission officer is fighting for the kid that wrote an opera. Objectively...who should get in?

My vote would be for the opera kid — but the reality is that it depends upon the other kids who are in the final rounds. They don’t want dozens of kids who write operas or who build robots, and many of the kids will have perfect sat scores. They want a class that includes a wide variety of interesting accomplished students— who can learn from and grow with each other in an environment that supports that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop pointing the finger at minorities. Legacies are the ones you should be concerned about. Legacies and friends/relatives of big donors are a huge population in the Ivy League.

What some people don't understand is that as long as you meet the minimum requirements, then you are qualified to get in. It's not about choosing the top scores/GPAs. We can all agree that colleges want a diverse population so once a student meets the minimum score/GPA qualification, they are evaluated on other criteria.

An asian getting a 1600 on the SAT has the same chance as another minority getting a 1400. They both meet the guidelines and then it's on to other criteria. However, they don't even look at the scores for some legacies and friends of top donors.

Yes the “holistic review “ mantra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
As far as I am aware, not only did the Asian lawsuits use test scores, IT ALSO used soft skills to prove that Asian-Americans were discriminated against. Many of these kids are musicians and artists. There are less athletes but it is not nil. We have Asian-American friends who have had to prove themselves 3x over purely because of their race. I am so tired to claim Americans of Asian ethnicity lack soft skills when I see plenty who prove otherwise.

+1 this is true. Plenty of Asian Americans who have great e.c. and top scores get denied. If a URM person had the same exact transcript/application, that person would get in.

The problem is that they are competing against themselves as a group rather than against ALL applicants.

As my white DH says, Asian Americans are victims of their own success.

No, Asian Americans are victims of racial discrimination due to their inadequate political clout.

PP here.. I'm Asian American.

I don't think they are discrimianted because they are of Asian heritage. The problem is that these institutions want a diverse student body. I don't think that's a bad thing. We chose a school cluster in part because of the diversity. I think it's a laudable goal.

Unfortunately, there are just a lot of really qualified Asian American students. Many of these students don't have legacy or sports as their "hook". They only have their brains and hard work, and many are not from really wealthy families.

The group is indeed a victim of their own success, unfortunately. Is there some discrimination against them purely because of their "race"? There certainly could be some in the admissions office who are indeed racist. For example, I read an article about how some in the admissions office would mark the Asian American applicants as not having good "people skills" or whatever label they use even though they had ever met the application, but the person who interviewed the applicant stated on the feedback that the applicant did have those skills.

I don't know if this type of thing is systemic or it was just a few bad apples. But, I do think that these institutions have a right to achieve a diverse student body.

Having stated that, however, I think that in order to achieve this, they really should get rid of legacies. I know why they admit legacies, but if they truly want a diverse student body and care about the purety of their admissions, then they should get rid of legacies. IMO, they are trying to play two games at the same time.

What does it mean to have a "diverse student body"? Not trying to be difficult, but who gets to decide what it means to be a "diverse student body"? I think the problem with this concept is that then you're effectively creating quota systems based on some pre-conceived notion of how things should be. I support the concept of affirmative action, but I worry that it devolves into a quota system based on the arbitrary choice of some admission officers of what a "diverse student body" should look like. A quota system I think is what causes people to cry that the process is unfair.

All that being said, none of this really gets at the larger structural issues in society. That is, by the time you're applying to college at 17 years old, much of your life has been shaped by the opportunities in front of you, so in some sense, things can never be fair or equal. Even if you eliminated all the "unfair" preferences (race, legacies, etc.) in an admissions process, it wouldn't change the larger structural issues. That is, you could have a "fair" admissions process but it still may not actually really be fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That may begin to change very soon when we have our first asian american vice president!

She doesn’t identify herself as Asian.

she speaks of her indian mom and says her mom understood that they would be treated as african american girls but she describes herself as the child of an indian born mom and a jamaican born dad.

And 99% of news articles and media coverage refer to her as black or African American which is misleading and the reason Why some people call them fake news.

Huh? Obama is half white but it is not fake news to describe him as our african american president.

Except she is quarter black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still fascinated that some Asians find comfort in having white supremacists on their side on college admissions. Luckily most of us understand that those who don't want African-Americans in elite colleges would be happy to bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act.

+1. They're just using Asian-Americans here.

Asian American kids are discriminated in college admissions - it is fact.

Lol: You get that saying “it is fact” (sic) doesn’t make it one, right? So the least you could do is throw in some supporting data or something.
Also, showing that there are students with great grades, nice extra curricular activities, and wonderful test scores who don’t get accepted by Yale, or wherever, isn’t saying anything since there are a lot of Valedictorians with good scores who apply.

OP — you’re making a great point.

My guess is that Yale is thrilled to get more students like Maya Lin — who are brilliant, creative individuals, and somewhat less thrilled to get students of any background who don’t stand out from the crowd of hardworking valedictorians who write essays about their over supervised community service projects.

I can't believe that anyone still believes that Asians aren't discriminated against in the admissions process. Can you imagine the outrage if AA applicants had to score significantly higher on the SAT than everyone else? They would go insane! You must be a justice warrior type to be in such denial.

The important thing here is that test scores aren’t the important thing.

Right discount the only objective measure out of many because it doesn’t fit with the narrative.

First up — it’s not as objective as all that, and it’s only one point out of many things that Yale looks at to create an interesting class.

I don’t have a narrative. Just basing my comments on my own experiences and observations as a student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still fascinated that some Asians find comfort in having white supremacists on their side on college admissions. Luckily most of us understand that those who don't want African-Americans in elite colleges would be happy to bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act.

+1. They're just using Asian-Americans here.

Asian American kids are discriminated in college admissions - it is fact.

Lol: You get that saying “it is fact” (sic) doesn’t make it one, right? So the least you could do is throw in some supporting data or something.
Also, showing that there are students with great grades, nice extra curricular activities, and wonderful test scores who don’t get accepted by Yale, or wherever, isn’t saying anything since there are a lot of Valedictorians with good scores who apply.

OP — you’re making a great point.

My guess is that Yale is thrilled to get more students like Maya Lin — who are brilliant, creative individuals, and somewhat less thrilled to get students of any background who don’t stand out from the crowd of hardworking valedictorians who write essays about their over supervised community service projects.

I can't believe that anyone still believes that Asians aren't discriminated against in the admissions process. Can you imagine the outrage if AA applicants had to score significantly higher on the SAT than everyone else? They would go insane! You must be a justice warrior type to be in such denial.

The important thing here is that test scores aren’t the important thing.

Right discount the only objective measure out of many because it doesn’t fit with the narrative.

First up — it’s not as objective as all that, and it’s only one point out of many things that Yale looks at to create an interesting class.

I don’t have a narrative. Just basing my comments on my own experiences and observations as a student.

It is more objective than all the other factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That may begin to change very soon when we have our first asian american vice president!

She doesn’t identify herself as Asian.

she speaks of her indian mom and says her mom understood that they would be treated as african american girls but she describes herself as the child of an indian born mom and a jamaican born dad.

And 99% of news articles and media coverage refer to her as black or African American which is misleading and the reason Why some people call them fake news.

Huh? Obama is half white but it is not fake news to describe him as our african american president.

Except she is quarter black.

What are you quibbling about? She describes her heritage. What is your issue? She does not say she is white or indian or black. She describes herself as a mix and she went to howard University.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop pointing the finger at minorities. Legacies are the ones you should be concerned about. Legacies and friends/relatives of big donors are a huge population in the Ivy League.

What some people don't understand is that as long as you meet the minimum requirements, then you are qualified to get in. It's not about choosing the top scores/GPAs. We can all agree that colleges want a diverse population so once a student meets the minimum score/GPA qualification, they are evaluated on other criteria.

An asian getting a 1600 on the SAT has the same chance as another minority getting a 1400. They both meet the guidelines and then it's on to other criteria. However, they don't even look at the scores for some legacies and friends of top donors.

Yes the “holistic review “ mantra.

+1. Everybody understands how the game is played but stop acting like your URM child didn't receive a sizable handicap during the admissions process. And as much noise as you'd like to make about legacy admits, that cohort's quantitative metrics are at least in the ballpark of the median. And why would I care about a handful of large donors being advantaged if their gifts benefit the school overall?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
As far as I am aware, not only did the Asian lawsuits use test scores, IT ALSO used soft skills to prove that Asian-Americans were discriminated against. Many of these kids are musicians and artists. There are less athletes but it is not nil. We have Asian-American friends who have had to prove themselves 3x over purely because of their race. I am so tired to claim Americans of Asian ethnicity lack soft skills when I see plenty who prove otherwise.

+1 this is true. Plenty of Asian Americans who have great e.c. and top scores get denied. If a URM person had the same exact transcript/application, that person would get in.

The problem is that they are competing against themselves as a group rather than against ALL applicants.

As my white DH says, Asian Americans are victims of their own success.

No, Asian Americans are victims of racial discrimination due to their inadequate political clout.

PP here.. I'm Asian American.



I don't think they are discrimianted because they are of Asian heritage. The problem is that these institutions want a diverse student body. I don't think that's a bad thing. We chose a school cluster in part because of the diversity. I think it's a laudable goal.

Unfortunately, there are just a lot of really qualified Asian American students. Many of these students don't have legacy or sports as their "hook". They only have their brains and hard work, and many are not from really wealthy families.

The group is indeed a victim of their own success, unfortunately. Is there some discrimination against them purely because of their "race"? There certainly could be some in the admissions office who are indeed racist. For example, I read an article about how some in the admissions office would mark the Asian American applicants as not having good "people skills" or whatever label they use even though they had ever met the application, but the person who interviewed the applicant stated on the feedback that the applicant did have those skills.

I don't know if this type of thing is systemic or it was just a few bad apples. But, I do think that these institutions have a right to achieve a diverse student body.

Having stated that, however, I think that in order to achieve this, they really should get rid of legacies. I know why they admit legacies, but if they truly want a diverse student body and care about the purety of their admissions, then they should get rid of legacies. IMO, they are trying to play two games at the same time.

What does it mean to have a "diverse student body"? Not trying to be difficult, but who gets to decide what it means to be a "diverse student body"? I think the problem with this concept is that then you're effectively creating quota systems based on some pre-conceived notion of how things should be. I support the concept of affirmative action, but I worry that it devolves into a quota system based on the arbitrary choice of some admission officers of what a "diverse student body" should look like. A quota system I think is what causes people to cry that the process is unfair.

All that being said, none of this really gets at the larger structural issues in society. That is, by the time you're applying to college at 17 years old, much of your life has been shaped by the opportunities in front of you, so in some sense, things can never be fair or equal. Even if you eliminated all the "unfair" preferences (race, legacies, etc.) in an admissions process, it wouldn't change the larger structural issues. That is, you could have a "fair" admissions process but it still may not actually really be fair.

It’s not about quotas. It’s more:: all things being equal — does one student bring something extra to the table. And “extra” could mean a wide variety of things— from having been a refugee, to being a musical prodigy, to being a 10th generation legacy — so that all of those kids can sit together in a dining hall and communicate with each other to build a better world. Looking at ‘fair’ and measuring that with test scores and awards isn’t the point. It’s more about getting a group of people with the skills and aptitude to do well (the easy part) and then building an interesting community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That may begin to change very soon when we have our first asian american vice president!

She doesn’t identify herself as Asian.

she speaks of her indian mom and says her mom understood that they would be treated as african american girls but she describes herself as the child of an indian born mom and a jamaican born dad.

And 99% of news articles and media coverage refer to her as black or African American which is misleading and the reason Why some people call them fake news.

Huh? Obama is half white but it is not fake news to describe him as our african american president.

Except she is quarter black.

What are you quibbling about? She describes her heritage. What is your issue? She does not say she is white or indian or black. She describes herself as a mix and she went to howard University.

I know plenty white or Asian people who attended Howard and that doesn’t make them black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm still fascinated that some Asians find comfort in having white supremacists on their side on college admissions. Luckily most of us understand that those who don't want African-Americans in elite colleges would be happy to bring back the Chinese Exclusion Act.

+1. They're just using Asian-Americans here.

Asian American kids are discriminated in college admissions - it is fact.

Lol: You get that saying “it is fact” (sic) doesn’t make it one, right? So the least you could do is throw in some supporting data or something.
Also, showing that there are students with great grades, nice extra curricular activities, and wonderful test scores who don’t get accepted by Yale, or wherever, isn’t saying anything since there are a lot of Valedictorians with good scores who apply.

OP — you’re making a great point.

My guess is that Yale is thrilled to get more students like Maya Lin — who are brilliant, creative individuals, and somewhat less thrilled to get students of any background who don’t stand out from the crowd of hardworking valedictorians who write essays about their over supervised community service projects.

I can't believe that anyone still believes that Asians aren't discriminated against in the admissions process. Can you imagine the outrage if AA applicants had to score significantly higher on the SAT than everyone else? They would go insane! You must be a justice warrior type to be in such denial.

The important thing here is that test scores aren’t the important thing.

Right discount the only objective measure out of many because it doesn’t fit with the narrative.

SAT scores have been shown time and time again to NOT be objective and everybody know GPA is not objective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a difficult issue. Most years at our super strong public high school, the valedictorian is a strong student that has the objectively high numerical average but it often acheived without taking some high level classes in which it is difficult to get high grades.

But this does not seem to deter the admissions committee at some very selective colleges from choosing some of the lower ranked but more highly challenged students for admission and not the valedictorian.

They don't have to always take the valedictorian who may have achieved that by avoiding challenges.

Don’t be a dimwit.....this is about meeting racial quotas regardless of qualifications.

Nonsense. There are many more qualified applicants then there are spots at many if these institutions. Knock out every unqualified applicant and these schools still have too many takers for too few positions.

If this were the case then black and Latino admits would have comparable stats but they don’t....they are markedly lower.

Again, the focus on admission isn’t just or even primarily “stats”. It’s. What can this person offer the community over an above having the “stats” that suggest that they will do well academically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You know.. this would mean a lot more with respect to these elite insitutions if they did not use hooks like athletes and legacies. But, they don't, so it makes this graphic condescending.

If they want to apply that to every applicant, then fine. But, unless they get rid of these hooks, then this graphic is just crap.

Except study after study shows athletes/artists/etc do much better long term than people that don't have hooks. Being exceptional at more than 1 thing make you more exceptional.