Duke vs. UVA (In-State)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

Duke is more than marginally better than UVA in reputation. I don't disagree with the rest of your cost/benefit analysis. But I do disagree with "marginally".

Last year's US News reputation rankings -- not overall rankings, just reputation -- had Duke tied for 12th and UVA tied for 21st. There was a 3 way tied for 14th and a 4 way tie for 17th, then you're at 21. So the difference between 12 and 21 is actually pretty marginal.

UVA was tied with Vanderbilt, was ahead of Rice, Notre Dame, Wash U and Georgetown, and just behind Dartmouth and Carnegie Mellon.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. One can't compare a public flagship with a private. They serve different purposes. If you return to USN&WR and look in the appropriate category, that of rankings of Public universities where UVA ranks no 4 in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.
\

But I think that is the point of this thread. Those "intangibles" of going to Duke v a great flagship no longer exist. Once upon a time when there wasn't such a huge difference in cost yes maybe it made sense to spend that kind of money on undergraduate but now the smart money is sending their children for undergraduate to state flagships and then saving their money for grad school which can be over 100K a year. Everyone now is expected to have an undergrad degree. That wasn't the case 25 years ago. It's absurd to spend these prices at $80K a year on "intangibles" when you can get a great education at a state university or even better, go community college for two years and enter UVA or UCLA or Berkeley on the guaranteed admission program. That's where the smart money is now.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

See your thinking is very middle classy. Trying to look for best bang for the buck. Those state schools attract people like you. Nothing wrong with it. Usually ambitious and bright middle class kids.

But undergraduate reputation still matters. There are plenty of upper class people who are willing to pay $80k. Their kids will meet similarly wealthy kids at private colleges. It’s true that private colleges try to attract kids from the low infome families. But the main stream at Duke and other top privates are always rich kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

Duke is more than marginally better than UVA in reputation. I don't disagree with the rest of your cost/benefit analysis. But I do disagree with "marginally".

Last year's US News reputation rankings -- not overall rankings, just reputation -- had Duke tied for 12th and UVA tied for 21st. There was a 3 way tied for 14th and a 4 way tie for 17th, then you're at 21. So the difference between 12 and 21 is actually pretty marginal.

UVA was tied with Vanderbilt, was ahead of Rice, Notre Dame, Wash U and Georgetown, and just behind Dartmouth and Carnegie Mellon.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. One can't compare a public flagship with a private. They serve different purposes. If you return to USN&WR and look in the appropriate category, that of rankings of Public universities where UVA ranks no 4 in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Of course you can compare a public school with a private. They are both schools people can choose to attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.
\

But I think that is the point of this thread. Those "intangibles" of going to Duke v a great flagship no longer exist. Once upon a time when there wasn't such a huge difference in cost yes maybe it made sense to spend that kind of money on undergraduate but now the smart money is sending their children for undergraduate to state flagships and then saving their money for grad school which can be over 100K a year. Everyone now is expected to have an undergrad degree. That wasn't the case 25 years ago. It's absurd to spend these prices at $80K a year on "intangibles" when you can get a great education at a state university or even better, go community college for two years and enter UVA or UCLA or Berkeley on the guaranteed admission program. That's where the smart money is now.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

See your thinking is very middle classy. Trying to look for best bang for the buck. Those state schools attract people like you. Nothing wrong with it. Usually ambitious and bright middle class kids.

But undergraduate reputation still matters. There are plenty of upper class people who are willing to pay $80k. Their kids will meet similarly wealthy kids at private colleges. It’s true that private colleges try to attract kids from the low infome families. But the main stream at Duke and other top privates are always rich kids.

You can get a higher percentage of lower income (Pell Grant) kids at the better privates than at many publics (like UVA). The publics have more financial appeal to middle/upper middle class.

[Anonymous]

am i wrong or are the last dozen or so posts on this thread by somebody who doesn't speak english?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

Duke is more than marginally better than UVA in reputation. I don't disagree with the rest of your cost/benefit analysis. But I do disagree with "marginally".

Last year's US News reputation rankings -- not overall rankings, just reputation -- had Duke tied for 12th and UVA tied for 21st. There was a 3 way tied for 14th and a 4 way tie for 17th, then you're at 21. So the difference between 12 and 21 is actually pretty marginal.

UVA was tied with Vanderbilt, was ahead of Rice, Notre Dame, Wash U and Georgetown, and just behind Dartmouth and Carnegie Mellon.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. One can't compare a public flagship with a private. They serve different purposes. If you return to USN&WR and look in the appropriate category, that of rankings of Public universities where UVA ranks no 4 in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Of course you can compare a public school with a private. They are both schools people can choose to attend.

Not when it comes to rankings which is what a PP was trying to do. A much better category and way of comparing schools is to compare SLACs only against SLACs; LACs against LACs, and public flagships against one another, which is why USN&WR provides a separate rankings for public universities, in which UVA comes in 4th in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

[Anonymous]

I think Duke has a greater "prestige" factor and agree with other posts that your child will rub elbows with many more rich kids there. IS it worth the extra money- not sure.
Also Duke has a 6% acceptance rate so this is really not something to fret over unless your child gets in. He or she is statistically much more likely to get into UVA -even in-state from NoVa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm glad that kids are branching out at UVA. It may be a plus that they like their high school friends and want to keep hanging out with them. No need to get so defensive there Hoos.

No one is being defensive. Just pointing out that, with the possible exception of TJ, Virginia public high schools aren't sending whole hordes of friends off to UVA together. Admissions are too competitive. In my case, two daughters went to UVA but none of their close friends got in.

TJ is about 2% or less of UVA and W&M undergraduate enrollment. That isn't that big of a concentration from one school. And some of the high schools are so large that the students that attend may not have even known each other other than in passing.

That's why I said [b]possible exception. But c'mon, if 100+ kids from the same high school go to the same college chances are there are good friends among them.

[/b]


Name one single high school that sends (actually sends) 100 students to UVA. You can't do it. Even Langley and McLean send only a few - they might have a larger aount accepted but that's not the same and entering. The very top students in VA use UVA as a backup in case they don't get into Ivy (case in point my DD). Even in her mega public high school only six actually showed up at UVA. The myth of 13th year of high school is totally a myth by those who couldn't get iin. In my DS's school, only two got into UVA and both went. They never have seen each other since the first year.

It doesn't have to be 100 kids. My DS's high school sent 6 kids to UVA and they all hang out together. If you want UVA to be considered a top school, stop saying it a myth. Your anecdote doesn't make it untrue any more than mine makes it untrue, but trying to say that my DS didn't get into UVA with his stats is laughable. Reason and logic > name calling. These are the things we learn at top schools, and your faulty arguments are making UVA look less appealing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

Duke is more than marginally better than UVA in reputation. I don't disagree with the rest of your cost/benefit analysis. But I do disagree with "marginally".

Last year's US News reputation rankings -- not overall rankings, just reputation -- had Duke tied for 12th and UVA tied for 21st. There was a 3 way tied for 14th and a 4 way tie for 17th, then you're at 21. So the difference between 12 and 21 is actually pretty marginal.

UVA was tied with Vanderbilt, was ahead of Rice, Notre Dame, Wash U and Georgetown, and just behind Dartmouth and Carnegie Mellon.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. One can't compare a public flagship with a private. They serve different purposes. If you return to USN&WR and look in the appropriate category, that of rankings of Public universities where UVA ranks no 4 in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Of course you can compare a public school with a private. They are both schools people can choose to attend.

Not when it comes to rankings which is what a PP was trying to do. A much better category and way of comparing schools is to compare SLACs only against SLACs; LACs against LACs, and public flagships against one another, which is why USN&WR provides a separate rankings for public universities, in which UVA comes in 4th in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

But people apply to LACs and universities, public schools and private schools. They ARE comparing them. Yes, it probably helps USNWR sell more, but these schools are being compared. You can't just say Duke and UVA can't be compared when the person who started this thread is comparing them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:am i wrong or are the last dozen or so posts on this thread by somebody who doesn't speak english?

What was the giveaway? Did they not show proper capitalization?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm glad that kids are branching out at UVA. It may be a plus that they like their high school friends and want to keep hanging out with them. No need to get so defensive there Hoos.

No one is being defensive. Just pointing out that, with the possible exception of TJ, Virginia public high schools aren't sending whole hordes of friends off to UVA together. Admissions are too competitive. In my case, two daughters went to UVA but none of their close friends got in.

TJ is about 2% or less of UVA and W&M undergraduate enrollment. That isn't that big of a concentration from one school. And some of the high schools are so large that the students that attend may not have even known each other other than in passing.

That's why I said [b]possible exception. But c'mon, if 100+ kids from the same high school go to the same college chances are there are good friends among them.

[/b]


Name one single high school that sends (actually sends) 100 students to UVA. You can't do it. Even Langley and McLean send only a few - they might have a larger aount accepted but that's not the same and entering. The very top students in VA use UVA as a backup in case they don't get into Ivy (case in point my DD). Even in her mega public high school only six actually showed up at UVA. The myth of 13th year of high school is totally a myth by those who couldn't get iin. In my DS's school, only two got into UVA and both went. They never have seen each other since the first year.

It doesn't have to be 100 kids. My DS's high school sent 6 kids to UVA and they all hang out together. If you want UVA to be considered a top school, stop saying it a myth. Your anecdote doesn't make it untrue any more than mine makes it untrue, but trying to say that my DS didn't get into UVA with his stats is laughable. Reason and logic > name calling. These are the things we learn at top schools, and your faulty arguments are making UVA look less appealing.

That's not a function of the college, that's a statement of the high school's culture and the students' personal preference. I went to a SLAC and there were three others from my high school there. Two of us did our own thing and were friendly when we ran into each other at events. Two stuck together like glue, rooming together all four years, even though they hadn't been close friends in high school.

People react differently to the new environments. Some spread their wings to explore and others hunker down and stick with what they know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:am i wrong or are the last dozen or so posts on this thread by somebody who doesn't speak english?

What was the giveaway? Did they not show proper capitalization?

Or punctuation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to an Ivy but was accepted to both Duke and UVA.

Duke offers more of an Ivy-like experience, but think Dartmouth-like behavior in faux-Princeton buildings with some Penn-like professional schools. I’m not sure the arrogant frat-boy culture at Duke is unique, but it is more obvious because the frats are right in the center of West Campus (or at least they used to be), not on the fringe as at many schools.

UVA has certain elements of a private-school culture, due to its history and location, but once you get outside the main grounds it’s basically like any other state university, which means most live off-campus and have to take ownership of their education because they aren’t going to be coddled like they would be at some pricey SLAC.

This. OP raised a wrong question.

Yes Duke is only marginally better in terms of reputation. And yes UVa is definetely cheaper. But why is UVa so much cheaper? Obviosly that’s because it’s a state school. So how come so many parents send their kids to pricey private colleges when they can send kids to cheaper public institutes? That’s because there are other intangibles that they can obtain only at private schools like better student care, connections with wealthy people, etc.

So the question should be whether the OP should pay the premium for those intangibles (plus marginally better reputation) at Duke.

Duke is more than marginally better than UVA in reputation. I don't disagree with the rest of your cost/benefit analysis. But I do disagree with "marginally".

Last year's US News reputation rankings -- not overall rankings, just reputation -- had Duke tied for 12th and UVA tied for 21st. There was a 3 way tied for 14th and a 4 way tie for 17th, then you're at 21. So the difference between 12 and 21 is actually pretty marginal.

UVA was tied with Vanderbilt, was ahead of Rice, Notre Dame, Wash U and Georgetown, and just behind Dartmouth and Carnegie Mellon.

But you are comparing apples to oranges. One can't compare a public flagship with a private. They serve different purposes. If you return to USN&WR and look in the appropriate category, that of rankings of Public universities where UVA ranks no 4 in the nation. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Man, it is awfully frustrating dealing with idiots. Re-read what I said. The reputation rankings that I gave ARE from the US News rankings. One of the components of the US News rankings is the reputation survey. UVA's ranking in the survey is 21; Duke's is 12. My point is that the two schools' academic reputations are actually much closer than their overall US News rankings may suggest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm glad that kids are branching out at UVA. It may be a plus that they like their high school friends and want to keep hanging out with them. No need to get so defensive there Hoos.

No one is being defensive. Just pointing out that, with the possible exception of TJ, Virginia public high schools aren't sending whole hordes of friends off to UVA together. Admissions are too competitive. In my case, two daughters went to UVA but none of their close friends got in.

TJ is about 2% or less of UVA and W&M undergraduate enrollment. That isn't that big of a concentration from one school. And some of the high schools are so large that the students that attend may not have even known each other other than in passing.

That's why I said [b]possible exception. But c'mon, if 100+ kids from the same high school go to the same college chances are there are good friends among them.

[/b]


Name one single high school that sends (actually sends) 100 students to UVA. You can't do it. Even Langley and McLean send only a few - they might have a larger aount accepted but that's not the same and entering. The very top students in VA use UVA as a backup in case they don't get into Ivy (case in point my DD). Even in her mega public high school only six actually showed up at UVA. The myth of 13th year of high school is totally a myth by those who couldn't get iin. In my DS's school, only two got into UVA and both went. They never have seen each other since the first year.

McLean consistently has over 50 kids admitted to UVA are ends up sending about 35. I’ve heard that’s also the case at South Lakes. So that’s more than a “few.” PP was probably referring to TJ sending over 100 kids to UVA. Maybe Robinson also did at the peak of its enrollment when it had graduating classes well over 700.

It would be more typical for two kids per year to go to Duke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm glad that kids are branching out at UVA. It may be a plus that they like their high school friends and want to keep hanging out with them. No need to get so defensive there Hoos.

No one is being defensive. Just pointing out that, with the possible exception of TJ, Virginia public high schools aren't sending whole hordes of friends off to UVA together. Admissions are too competitive. In my case, two daughters went to UVA but none of their close friends got in.

TJ is about 2% or less of UVA and W&M undergraduate enrollment. That isn't that big of a concentration from one school. And some of the high schools are so large that the students that attend may not have even known each other other than in passing.

That's why I said [b]possible exception. But c'mon, if 100+ kids from the same high school go to the same college chances are there are good friends among them.

[/b]


Name one single high school that sends (actually sends) 100 students to UVA. You can't do it. Even Langley and McLean send only a few - they might have a larger aount accepted but that's not the same and entering. The very top students in VA use UVA as a backup in case they don't get into Ivy (case in point my DD). Even in her mega public high school only six actually showed up at UVA. The myth of 13th year of high school is totally a myth by those who couldn't get iin. In my DS's school, only two got into UVA and both went. They never have seen each other since the first year.

McLean consistently has over 50 kids admitted to UVA are ends up sending about 35. I’ve heard that’s also the case at South Lakes. So that’s more than a “few.” PP was probably referring to TJ sending over 100 kids to UVA. Maybe Robinson also did at the peak of its enrollment when it had graduating classes well over 700.

It would be more typical for two kids per year to go to Duke.

PP is correct -- most of the big public high schools in NOVA, especially the higher ranked ones (Langley, McLean, Yorktown, etc.) send a couple dozen kids or more to UVA each year. Still, other than TJ no single school comes close to being even one percent of the entering class.

I had two kids go to UVA from one of these high schools. One actually accepted a high school classmate's offer to be first-year roommates and came to regret it. They were friendly enough in high school that my kid felt obligated to agree, but they weren't super close, and once they got to UVA they had virtually nothing to do with each other and parted ways completely after the first year. (My kid ended up going Greek and the roommate didn't.)

My other kid was friendly enough with a couple of classmates from high school who also ended up at UVA but, again, other than say hello on Grounds they lead completely different social lives.

When 20 or 30 of your high school classmates join an entering class of nearly 4000 at UVA your experience is not going to be a fifth year of high school, especially if you don't room with one of them.