Controversial opinion: College and University edition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

I doubt any LACs, or even Harvard, is worth the full price. If a T20 provides even $10000 merit aid per year, you would be a fool to take name-brand LACs or even Harvard. (Even name-brand LACs like Swarthmore and Smith are turning pre-professional/vocational by offering pre-professional programs, e.g., engineering. These schools follow - not lead- state universities.

Harvard has engineering and has perhaps had it longer than any other university in the U.S. They also provide among the most generous financial aid, even to relatively high middle income families. If you look at reports like this, you can see Harvard graduates, adjusting for majors, earn more than almost all other colleges and also are very high earners without adjusting for majors.

That's based upon what HARVARD (I'm a grad) thinks middle-income is. Here is it: "Our program requires no contribution from Harvard families with annual incomes below $65,000. About 20% of our families have no parent contribution.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances." We got zero, nada. The only kids that can attend Harvard these days are the low-income and the rich. The MC and UMC cannot afford $75K a year. And BTW the law school is now $100K a year. WhY? Because it's harvard so they can charge it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

William & Mary is a university. It has many graduate programs, including law, business, and education. It uses college because that was the name given in its royal charter. Dartmouth College also is a university that uses "college". The prior post actually mentioned Washington and Lee, not W&M. Washington and Lee is usually cited as an LAC, but its name is Washington and Lee University.

Nope. Name is College of William & Mary. Period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_William_%26_Mary. The Commonwealth of Virginia also calls it that. The SCHEV calls it htat. http://www.schev.edu/docs/default-source/institution-section/6-year-plans/cwm/2017/cwm-2017-six-year-plan-part-iicbf7bb50bece61aeb256ff000079de01.pdf

You bolded Washington and Lee University and responded with links about the name of the College of William and Mary. If you read the description in the links you provided, you will see William & Mary is described as a university even though the name is College of William and Mary. That was the point above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

I think the point was UVA College of Arts and Sciences has the typical liberal arts majors, so is pretty much like going to UVA's LAC. And the poster mentioned Washington & Lee, not William & Mary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

I doubt any LACs, or even Harvard, is worth the full price. If a T20 provides even $10000 merit aid per year, you would be a fool to take name-brand LACs or even Harvard. (Even name-brand LACs like Swarthmore and Smith are turning pre-professional/vocational by offering pre-professional programs, e.g., engineering. These schools follow - not lead- state universities.

Harvard has engineering and has perhaps had it longer than any other university in the U.S. They also provide among the most generous financial aid, even to relatively high middle income families. If you look at reports like this, you can see Harvard graduates, adjusting for majors, earn more than almost all other colleges and also are very high earners without adjusting for majors.

That's based upon what HARVARD (I'm a grad) thinks middle-income is. Here is it: "Our program requires no contribution from Harvard families with annual incomes below $65,000. About 20% of our families have no parent contribution.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances." We got zero, nada. The only kids that can attend Harvard these days are the low-income and the rich. The MC and UMC cannot afford $75K a year. And BTW the law school is now $100K a year. WhY? Because it's harvard so they can charge it.

Well, median HHI in the US in 2017 was between $50 and 75K (a little over 61K) And less than 15% of households had incomes greater than $150K. So I think HARVARD (I’m a grad) is thinking more rationally than you are about income distribution in the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/203183/percentage-distribution-of-household-income-in-the-us/

[Anonymous]

Harvard grad doesn't understand stats. A significant number of the households in the hhi stat are single person household including never married rand retired. The stat Harvard should be using isn't average natl hhi but average income for two parent households with one of more college aged dependents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

I doubt any LACs, or even Harvard, is worth the full price. If a T20 provides even $10000 merit aid per year, you would be a fool to take name-brand LACs or even Harvard. (Even name-brand LACs like Swarthmore and Smith are turning pre-professional/vocational by offering pre-professional programs, e.g., engineering. These schools follow - not lead- state universities.

Harvard has engineering and has perhaps had it longer than any other university in the U.S. They also provide among the most generous financial aid, even to relatively high middle income families. If you look at reports like this, you can see Harvard graduates, adjusting for majors, earn more than almost all other colleges and also are very high earners without adjusting for majors.

That's based upon what HARVARD (I'm a grad) thinks middle-income is. Here is it: "Our program requires no contribution from Harvard families with annual incomes below $65,000. About 20% of our families have no parent contribution.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances." We got zero, nada. The only kids that can attend Harvard these days are the low-income and the rich. The MC and UMC cannot afford $75K a year. And BTW the law school is now $100K a year. WhY? Because it's harvard so they can charge it.

I don't understand your point. In fact, what you cited doesn't make your point. If families with incomes between $65K and $150K contribute from 0-10% of their income, that is a MAXIMUM of $6.5K to $15K per year. They would be receiving a lot of grant aid to keep the contribution that low.

Princeton's is a bit clearer. Look how far up the grant aid goes: https://admission.princeton.edu/cost-aid/how-princetons-aid-program-works

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Harvard grad doesn't understand stats. A significant number of the households in the hhi stat are single person household including never married rand retired. The stat Harvard should be using isn't average natl hhi but average income for two parent households with one of more college aged dependents.

NP: according to Social Security data the median per capita wage is $28,031. In a 2 family household that would be approximately $65K. That is the middle class, not $150K+ plus households.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

I doubt any LACs, or even Harvard, is worth the full price. If a T20 provides even $10000 merit aid per year, you would be a fool to take name-brand LACs or even Harvard. (Even name-brand LACs like Swarthmore and Smith are turning pre-professional/vocational by offering pre-professional programs, e.g., engineering. These schools follow - not lead- state universities.

Harvard has engineering and has perhaps had it longer than any other university in the U.S. They also provide among the most generous financial aid, even to relatively high middle income families. If you look at reports like this, you can see Harvard graduates, adjusting for majors, earn more than almost all other colleges and also are very high earners without adjusting for majors.

That's based upon what HARVARD (I'm a grad) thinks middle-income is. Here is it: "Our program requires no contribution from Harvard families with annual incomes below $65,000. About 20% of our families have no parent contribution.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances." We got zero, nada. The only kids that can attend Harvard these days are the low-income and the rich. The MC and UMC cannot afford $75K a year. And BTW the law school is now $100K a year. WhY? Because it's harvard so they can charge it.

I don't understand your point. In fact, what you cited doesn't make your point. If families with incomes between $65K and $150K contribute from 0-10% of their income, that is a MAXIMUM of $6.5K to $15K per year. They would be receiving a lot of grant aid to keep the contribution that low.

Princeton's is a bit clearer. Look how far up the grant aid goes: https://admission.princeton.edu/cost-aid/how-princetons-aid-program-works

I'd offer a first hand opinion. We have an HHI of 190K and received aid packages from multiple Ivies, including Princeton, that averaged about 50% off the sticker price. When people complain about not receiving aid, I often wonder if they are being honest about their overall assets. FWIW, the financial aid calculations are different for each school - Princeton for example doesn't count home equity as heavily as some others and other Ivies take into account cost of living for your city. I think Harvard is probably about the same as Princeton. FWIW I don't consider making 190K to be middle class as some others on this thread might think it's definitely on the low end of upper class IMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

I think the point was UVA College of Arts and Sciences has the typical liberal arts majors, so is pretty much like going to UVA's LAC. And the poster mentioned Washington & Lee, not William & Mary.

That's correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

I think the point was UVA College of Arts and Sciences has the typical liberal arts majors, so is pretty much like going to UVA's LAC. And the poster mentioned Washington & Lee, not William & Mary.

That's correct.

The original post was positing that LACs aren't worth full price, presumably because of the majors in liberal arts. But these majors are available at most universities, so if the concern is about majors, it isn't right to single out LACs. I think some people forget, due to the name perhaps, that liberal arts includes all of the base sciences.

[Anonymous]

Go all in for a Gap year.

[Anonymous]

Parents only care about the elite-ness of a school so their child will marry rich and have rich friends.