Controversial opinion: College and University edition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s frustrating that my DC is working her ass off the get straight A’s and good test scores but it’s probably it enough to get in to UVA or W&M because she’s a Asian female from Northern Virginia with little time (or money) to partake in any significant ECs.

I don't blame you for being frustrated based on what you read on the boards. However, I would suggest you take a look at the Naviance scatter grams for UVa and W&M if those are your goal. The very narrow distribution for these schools at NVa public high schools suggest that if your daughter has the grades and test scores, she is very likely to be accepted regardless of EC's. The reality is they reject almost nobody who is at the median for GPA and test scores.

I generally agree, but the funny thing for the Naviance plot at our NOVA hs is that right at the GPA/SAT score median mark for W&M there are a lot of waitlisted students. It seems there is a cluster with higher GPA/lower test scores that get in and higher test scores/lower GPA that get in, but if you fall right around the median score, you have a 50/50 chance of being waitlisted. Just an odd data quirk, maybe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College aren't behind the ridiculous AP expectations, parents are. Colleges admit the best of who applies. Parents are the ones pushing their DDs and DSs to have more APs than the last kid who got in.

Going to a school that limits how many APs you can take in a year is a great thing for stress and wellness.

I agree with what you said about the value of AP limits. (Though high schools get measured by AP participation so it won’t happen any time soon.) But when colleges give weight and actual credit for AP they are part of it. When you can load up on credits in HS and save a semester or two of insanely expensive tuition it’s hard not to try. My first made himself miserable with APs but it did probably get him into the school he really wanted. He didn’t make up the rules, nor did we. He heard ‘most rigor possible at your school’ and the importance of class rank and at his school that meant APs.

FCPS isn't even reporting the rank anymore. I know people here say admissions guesses or knows, but that can't be so for every college.

I interpret the rigor comment as get to the AP at some point in each subject. I don't think it means take all 5 history APs, 4 science APs, etc. [/quote]


There's a simple answer. Every year the high schools provide a "class profile" sheet to the universities and colleges. It's a bar chart showing where the rising senior class stands in terms of GPA (because not all high schools are equal as you know). So the chart will show that a 4.44 means that Largo is in the top 1% of the class or the top 25% of the class in the case of TJ. The first thing that the readers hired by college admissions officers do is pull out the ACT, SAT and SAT II scores and put them at the top. Then they align the student's end of junior year GPA across the class profile and figure out their class rank. Takes less than 2 seconds. In most large universities, if the student doesn't make that cull then the application doesn't proceed. Other facts that might be culled out at that point are URM, Questbridge (separate application program), first-generation, legacy if significant bucks and "development" if the dad is Steve Jobs and the University thinks a building in the future might be in the offing. Only after meeting the University's standards for GPA and class rank does the application go to the next stage for an EC check. Lastly letters of recommendations and the essay. When colleges are receiving 35,000 applications a year they can't read all of them. The average application at a SLAC gets 6 minutes of read time. Less so at a popular university. The bar charts are all explained in Dean J.'s materials at UVA. That's why they can tell you "FCPS doesn't rank!" but then when the class is formed, the President of the University will say that 94.6% of the admitted or incoming class is in the top ten percent of their high school class. Also, each FCPS counselor writes their own letter of recommendation and indicates where the student stands vis-a-vis their own class in their own statement.

Someone, perhaps you, has posted this before, but this isn't quite true. When they cite the percentage in the top 10%, it is only from those high schools that provide class rank, and this number has been declining as a percentage for some time. It isn't from something interpolated. You can see this stated on USNews and UVA web site. Now that doesn't admissions can't make relative determinations, it just isn't what they report. What I saw during my brief period working in an admissions office was that they are essentially creating their own index based on the transcript. This could adjust for GPA differences between schools, difficulty, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe then the College Board and ACT will implode then.

They are the only thing that is standardized in the entire process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Awesome, thanks. Fun to just say stuff on the internet, isn’t it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UDC is better than most think and can be a good (and cheap) choice.

The problem with UDC is not the education or the students. It's the utter incompetence of personnel who are so disorganized that they force students to flee elsewhere ... anywhere.

Not our experience at all.

Not picking on UDC but a graduation rate of ~15% indicates something seriously wrong. Not sure how that truly serves the community.

Graduation rates may not be the best measure for a school whose student body is majority nontraditional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UDC is better than most think and can be a good (and cheap) choice.

The problem with UDC is not the education or the students. It's the utter incompetence of personnel who are so disorganized that they force students to flee elsewhere ... anywhere.

Not our experience at all.

Not picking on UDC but a graduation rate of ~15% indicates something seriously wrong. Not sure how that truly serves the community.

Graduation rates may not be the best measure for a school whose student body is majority nontraditional.

So what is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College aren't behind the ridiculous AP expectations, parents are. Colleges admit the best of who applies. Parents are the ones pushing their DDs and DSs to have more APs than the last kid who got in.

Going to a school that limits how many APs you can take in a year is a great thing for stress and wellness.

I agree with what you said about the value of AP limits. (Though high schools get measured by AP participation so it won’t happen any time soon.) But when colleges give weight and actual credit for AP they are part of it. When you can load up on credits in HS and save a semester or two of insanely expensive tuition it’s hard not to try. My first made himself miserable with APs but it did probably get him into the school he really wanted. He didn’t make up the rules, nor did we. He heard ‘most rigor possible at your school’ and the importance of class rank and at his school that meant APs.

FCPS isn't even reporting the rank anymore. I know people here say admissions guesses or knows, but that can't be so for every college.

I interpret the rigor comment as get to the AP at some point in each subject. I don't think it means take all 5 history APs, 4 science APs, etc. [/quote]


There's a simple answer. Every year the high schools provide a "class profile" sheet to the universities and colleges. It's a bar chart showing where the rising senior class stands in terms of GPA (because not all high schools are equal as you know). So the chart will show that a 4.44 means that Largo is in the top 1% of the class or the top 25% of the class in the case of TJ. The first thing that the readers hired by college admissions officers do is pull out the ACT, SAT and SAT II scores and put them at the top. Then they align the student's end of junior year GPA across the class profile and figure out their class rank. Takes less than 2 seconds. In most large universities, if the student doesn't make that cull then the application doesn't proceed. Other facts that might be culled out at that point are URM, Questbridge (separate application program), first-generation, legacy if significant bucks and "development" if the dad is Steve Jobs and the University thinks a building in the future might be in the offing. Only after meeting the University's standards for GPA and class rank does the application go to the next stage for an EC check. Lastly letters of recommendations and the essay. When colleges are receiving 35,000 applications a year they can't read all of them. The average application at a SLAC gets 6 minutes of read time. Less so at a popular university. The bar charts are all explained in Dean J.'s materials at UVA. That's why they can tell you "FCPS doesn't rank!" but then when the class is formed, the President of the University will say that 94.6% of the admitted or incoming class is in the top ten percent of their high school class. Also, each FCPS counselor writes their own letter of recommendation and indicates where the student stands vis-a-vis their own class in their own statement.

Someone, perhaps you, has posted this before, but this isn't quite true. When they cite the percentage in the top 10%, it is only from those high schools that provide class rank, and this number has been declining as a percentage for some time. It isn't from something interpolated. You can see this stated on USNews and UVA web site. Now that doesn't admissions can't make relative determinations, it just isn't what they report. What I saw during my brief period working in an admissions office was that they are essentially creating their own index based on the transcript. This could adjust for GPA differences between schools, difficulty, etc.

NP - no that isn't correct. The admissions office knows via the high school guidance counselors and the high school profiles where each student ranks, so even if FCPS says they don't rank, the colleges and universities can tell. That's how colleges and Universities can make this comment: "In addition, the average SAT score and the percentage of applicants from within the top 10th of their high school classes are both higher than last year." https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-sets-early-action-application-record-including-large-increases-minority-and-first. It's the first thing the contract reviewers do - they align the applicant's GPA against the profile grid for the applicant class. Takes two seconds. That way the school can say "please apply! GPA and scores and class rank don't matter that much, we're holistic!" (in order to encourage more applications to turn them down in order to drive down the selectivity percentage) but at the same time the President can announce that 95% of the class is in the top ten percent of their high school class. Marketing 101.

[Anonymous]

After being told for 4 years that they are toxic and the source of all their peers' problems, a large cohort of alimni will no longer be a reliable source of donations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

I doubt any LACs, or even Harvard, is worth the full price. If a T20 provides even $10000 merit aid per year, you would be a fool to take name-brand LACs or even Harvard. (Even name-brand LACs like Swarthmore and Smith are turning pre-professional/vocational by offering pre-professional programs, e.g., engineering. These schools follow - not lead- state universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

William & Mary is a university. It has many graduate programs, including law, business, and education. It uses college because that was the name given in its royal charter. Dartmouth College also is a university that uses "college". The prior post actually mentioned Washington and Lee, not W&M. Washington and Lee is usually cited as an LAC, but its name is Washington and Lee University.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College aren't behind the ridiculous AP expectations, parents are. Colleges admit the best of who applies. Parents are the ones pushing their DDs and DSs to have more APs than the last kid who got in.

Going to a school that limits how many APs you can take in a year is a great thing for stress and wellness.

I agree with what you said about the value of AP limits. (Though high schools get measured by AP participation so it won’t happen any time soon.) But when colleges give weight and actual credit for AP they are part of it. When you can load up on credits in HS and save a semester or two of insanely expensive tuition it’s hard not to try. My first made himself miserable with APs but it did probably get him into the school he really wanted. He didn’t make up the rules, nor did we. He heard ‘most rigor possible at your school’ and the importance of class rank and at his school that meant APs.

FCPS isn't even reporting the rank anymore. I know people here say admissions guesses or knows, but that can't be so for every college.

I interpret the rigor comment as get to the AP at some point in each subject. I don't think it means take all 5 history APs, 4 science APs, etc. [/quote]


There's a simple answer. Every year the high schools provide a "class profile" sheet to the universities and colleges. It's a bar chart showing where the rising senior class stands in terms of GPA (because not all high schools are equal as you know). So the chart will show that a 4.44 means that Largo is in the top 1% of the class or the top 25% of the class in the case of TJ. The first thing that the readers hired by college admissions officers do is pull out the ACT, SAT and SAT II scores and put them at the top. Then they align the student's end of junior year GPA across the class profile and figure out their class rank. Takes less than 2 seconds. In most large universities, if the student doesn't make that cull then the application doesn't proceed. Other facts that might be culled out at that point are URM, Questbridge (separate application program), first-generation, legacy if significant bucks and "development" if the dad is Steve Jobs and the University thinks a building in the future might be in the offing. Only after meeting the University's standards for GPA and class rank does the application go to the next stage for an EC check. Lastly letters of recommendations and the essay. When colleges are receiving 35,000 applications a year they can't read all of them. The average application at a SLAC gets 6 minutes of read time. Less so at a popular university. The bar charts are all explained in Dean J.'s materials at UVA. That's why they can tell you "FCPS doesn't rank!" but then when the class is formed, the President of the University will say that 94.6% of the admitted or incoming class is in the top ten percent of their high school class. Also, each FCPS counselor writes their own letter of recommendation and indicates where the student stands vis-a-vis their own class in their own statement.

Someone, perhaps you, has posted this before, but this isn't quite true. When they cite the percentage in the top 10%, it is only from those high schools that provide class rank, and this number has been declining as a percentage for some time. It isn't from something interpolated. You can see this stated on USNews and UVA web site. Now that doesn't admissions can't make relative determinations, it just isn't what they report. What I saw during my brief period working in an admissions office was that they are essentially creating their own index based on the transcript. This could adjust for GPA differences between schools, difficulty, etc.

NP - no that isn't correct. The admissions office knows via the high school guidance counselors and the high school profiles where each student ranks, so even if FCPS says they don't rank, the colleges and universities can tell. That's how colleges and Universities can make this comment: "In addition, the average SAT score and the percentage of applicants from within the top 10th of their high school classes are both higher than last year." https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-sets-early-action-application-record-including-large-increases-minority-and-first. It's the first thing the contract reviewers do - they align the applicant's GPA against the profile grid for the applicant class. Takes two seconds. That way the school can say "please apply! GPA and scores and class rank don't matter that much, we're holistic!" (in order to encourage more applications to turn them down in order to drive down the selectivity percentage) but at the same time the President can announce that 95% of the class is in the top ten percent of their high school class. Marketing 101.

Again, there are two distinct things here. What is reported by the colleges (% in top 10%) to USNews and in the Common Data Set is only based on what is reported by the high schools. You can see this mentioned in the Common Data Set and in USNews. Yes, based on a transcript and school profile, they have a reasonably good idea of how students stack up, but that is not what is reported and is used in admissions. I worked in an admission office and they didn't actually stop there. They did their own evaluation of the transcripts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

I doubt any LACs, or even Harvard, is worth the full price. If a T20 provides even $10000 merit aid per year, you would be a fool to take name-brand LACs or even Harvard. (Even name-brand LACs like Swarthmore and Smith are turning pre-professional/vocational by offering pre-professional programs, e.g., engineering. These schools follow - not lead- state universities.

Harvard has engineering and has perhaps had it longer than any other university in the U.S. They also provide among the most generous financial aid, even to relatively high middle income families. If you look at reports like this, you can see Harvard graduates, adjusting for majors, earn more than almost all other colleges and also are very high earners without adjusting for majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only a handful of LACs are worth the full price, and students who can get into them can get into T10/T20 universites, which are a much better investment in the long-term.

Is going to a LAC any different than going to say UVA College of Arts and Sciences? And if you look at a LAC like Washington and Lee, they have a business school, and even a (limited) engineering program.

UVA is a University. William & Mary is still designated a College.

William & Mary is a university. It has many graduate programs, including law, business, and education. It uses college because that was the name given in its royal charter. Dartmouth College also is a university that uses "college". The prior post actually mentioned Washington and Lee, not W&M. Washington and Lee is usually cited as an LAC, but its name is Washington and Lee University.

Nope. Name is College of William & Mary. Period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_William_%26_Mary. The Commonwealth of Virginia also calls it that. The SCHEV calls it htat. http://www.schev.edu/docs/default-source/institution-section/6-year-plans/cwm/2017/cwm-2017-six-year-plan-part-iicbf7bb50bece61aeb256ff000079de01.pdf