My daughter bombed her ACT - move on to SAT?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Someone who has severe ADHD but who is gifted at math would do better to be a Math professor and not an engineer. Engineering is a brutal, on demand, endless task oriented education - that’s probably not a good fit. Math is more about thinking and it’s not necessarily time dependent, especially at the higher levels. There are a LOT of ‘different’ math professors too - as long as your brain works for math you can be and act however you want, people only care about your math skills.

Not necessarily. My dd’s precalc teacher has ADHD. She often arrives half way through their class (first period), she forgets to teach entire units that are on the test, she loses half the homework and says that she has her kids grade the tests using a key and that is why she doesn’t give partial credit. She is an absolute disaster and the administration turns a blind eye. A teacher or professor needs to be on top of things because there are hundreds of kids relying on them. If the teacher can’t hold it together, the kids can’t learn.

[Anonymous]

Those people with adhd are ruining the world. Let’s put them away for good.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I posted earlier recommending a tutor. The thing is, a tutor is necessary to figure out the strategies and to go over the wrong answers her so she can see what she did wrong. The tutor will provide your daughter with strategies on how to approach certain questions, and what to look for. My DS had a 33 in his mock tests as a rising junior. After a few months of tutoring, he took the test in February and scored a 35. The tutor will help your DD improve her score significantly, especially the lower scores. It is a worthwhile investment.

This is a great example illustrating why the ACT and SAT are of limited value for colleges and why the Harvard lawsuit will fail.

Exactly. High scores have reduced value because they can be bought and/or made into an extracurricular activity.

+1

That is why schools with holistic admissions can see who probably aid for their higher test scores.

Those of you referring to "paying for" scores-- do you mean, paying for prep courses?

I'll say "yes", and I'll plead guilty to doing it for my own kids. What I won't do is claim that they are somehow being victimized because DD's 1570 doesn't impress Harvard.

Harvard clearly discriminated. A judge has ordered the release of its admission data. I won't tell my kids they are being victimized either but have to remind them to work extra hard to level the "holistic" bias against them.

If you are telling them to work extra hard to improve their 1570 to a 1600 you are wasting their time. It is a distinction without a difference. Crying bias won't change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Someone who has severe ADHD but who is gifted at math would do better to be a Math professor and not an engineer. Engineering is a brutal, on demand, endless task oriented education - that’s probably not a good fit. Math is more about thinking and it’s not necessarily time dependent, especially at the higher levels. There are a LOT of ‘different’ math professors too - as long as your brain works for math you can be and act however you want, people only care about your math skills.

Not necessarily. My dd’s precalc teacher has ADHD. She often arrives half way through their class (first period), she forgets to teach entire units that are on the test, she loses half the homework and says that she has her kids grade the tests using a key and that is why she doesn’t give partial credit. She is an absolute disaster and the administration turns a blind eye. A teacher or professor needs to be on top of things because there are hundreds of kids relying on them. If the teacher can’t hold it together, the kids can’t learn.

And she will never get fired because she has a “disability.”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The fact that people jump all over the unfairness of extra time, is really just more evidence for the effectiveness of prep. The student who would have a perfect score with a little more time is exactly the student who could be coached to get a perfect score under actual test conditions. (As long as they don't have a disability.) Which is exactly why these tests have only limited meaning.

You cannot actually fix stupid, nope.


You people need to take a practice test and see if you can get a perfect score after some practice or even with unlimited time. Try it . Not a chance.

If someone is getting wrong answers because they're confused by questions, it might be impossible to fix that. But if someone understands every question given enough time and relaxed conditions, that's not stupid, and, yep they can improve their score.

And, meant to say, I have recently taken a sample ACT, which is exactly why I came to this conclusion. Yes, I missed things, and happily DC beat my score (which is my only goal) but neither of us found anything we didn't understand. The material is quite easy, some questions are designed to catch careless reading--experience is key, and speed comes with practice.

You took the whole hours long test under timed conditions and what was your score? And then you studied - and what was your score
I think that you are completely trivializing these tests - they are not easy and the vast majority of people couldn’t get a score in the high 90th percentiles no matter how much they studied.

And, I think you are glamorizing these tests and overplaying the intrinsic nature of a good score. But don't take my word for it, just look at the downsized role they play in admissions to see that people with a lot more experience than me have reached this conclusion. They can be used in tit-for-tat merit aid arrangements, so they have value, but there should be no surprise that some students with lower scores receive outsized recognition for other attributes.

But, yeah we took it under timed conditions (some longer breaks). I haven't seen this test since '89, and DC hadn't seen it before, but has been studying SAT. I was 95th percentile (bombed), and she was 99th. I'm done, but she's now very motivated to keep practicing, and that was the goal. In fairness, I think an adult is supposed to maintain or improve reading comprehension, and since I've never been a math-phobe, my basic math has been maintained, too. Yes, we could be completely delusional, but we both saw a path to improvement (she'll know soon enough). Anyway, I believe the multiple PP's stories of dramatically improving their DC's scores with $800 worth of tutoring. Yes, there are people who are not capable of this, but there are plenty of people who just aren't aware of how much scores can be increased, and that is closely correlated to household income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Someone who has severe ADHD but who is gifted at math would do better to be a Math professor and not an engineer. Engineering is a brutal, on demand, endless task oriented education - that’s probably not a good fit. Math is more about thinking and it’s not necessarily time dependent, especially at the higher levels. There are a LOT of ‘different’ math professors too - as long as your brain works for math you can be and act however you want, people only care about your math skills.

Not necessarily. My dd’s precalc teacher has ADHD. She often arrives half way through their class (first period), she forgets to teach entire units that are on the test, she loses half the homework and says that she has her kids grade the tests using a key and that is why she doesn’t give partial credit. She is an absolute disaster and the administration turns a blind eye. A teacher or professor needs to be on top of things because there are hundreds of kids relying on them. If the teacher can’t hold it together, the kids can’t learn.

I didn’t tell her son to become a calculus TEACHER. Teacher and university professors are very different things. The main job of a university math professor is to solve theoretical math problems. They only get tagged to teach a basic math class like calculus if they’ve done something wrong. And yes - many university math professors are terrible.

Of course gifted at high school math doesn’t mean someone would be gifted at higher order theoretical math.