My daughter bombed her ACT - move on to SAT?

[Anonymous]

The fact that people jump all over the unfairness of extra time, is really just more evidence for the effectiveness of prep. The student who would have a perfect score with a little more time is exactly the student who could be coached to get a perfect score under actual test conditions. (As long as they don't have a disability.) Which is exactly why these tests have only limited meaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people jump all over the unfairness of extra time, is really just more evidence for the effectiveness of prep. The student who would have a perfect score with a little more time is exactly the student who could be coached to get a perfect score under actual test conditions. (As long as they don't have a disability.) Which is exactly why these tests have only limited meaning.

You cannot actually fix stupid, nope.


You people need to take a practice test and see if you can get a perfect score after some practice or even with unlimited time. Try it . Not a chance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people jump all over the unfairness of extra time, is really just more evidence for the effectiveness of prep. The student who would have a perfect score with a little more time is exactly the student who could be coached to get a perfect score under actual test conditions. (As long as they don't have a disability.) Which is exactly why these tests have only limited meaning.

You cannot actually fix stupid, nope.


You people need to take a practice test and see if you can get a perfect score after some practice or even with unlimited time. Try it . Not a chance.

If someone is getting wrong answers because they're confused by questions, it might be impossible to fix that. But if someone understands every question given enough time and relaxed conditions, that's not stupid, and, yep they can improve their score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people jump all over the unfairness of extra time, is really just more evidence for the effectiveness of prep. The student who would have a perfect score with a little more time is exactly the student who could be coached to get a perfect score under actual test conditions. (As long as they don't have a disability.) Which is exactly why these tests have only limited meaning.

You cannot actually fix stupid, nope.


You people need to take a practice test and see if you can get a perfect score after some practice or even with unlimited time. Try it . Not a chance.

If someone is getting wrong answers because they're confused by questions, it might be impossible to fix that. But if someone understands every question given enough time and relaxed conditions, that's not stupid, and, yep they can improve their score.

And, meant to say, I have recently taken a sample ACT, which is exactly why I came to this conclusion. Yes, I missed things, and happily DC beat my score (which is my only goal) but neither of us found anything we didn't understand. The material is quite easy, some questions are designed to catch careless reading--experience is key, and speed comes with practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Under normal circumstances, no. Someone with ADHD could not keep up with the pace of the education or the career. However, someone who does not actually suffer from ADHD and is merely gaining a diagnosis and accomodations to rise above the middle of the pack would do just fine. It’s part of the “everyone gets a trophy” culture. Does everyone need top scores and grades, followed by an elite education to have a great career? Obviously not, but everyone wants that for their kid. The issue is that people learn differently, people naturally excel at some things and not others, and until recently, those characteristics actually helped people find a career that they were naturally good at. But now, if you’re getting As in everything but Cs in math, that is seen as a disability and something that can be fixed with meds and accomodations.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that on paper, these kids who don’t axtuallu need accomodations look better than the kids who just worked hard to get the best grades they could.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Under normal circumstances, no. Someone with ADHD could not keep up with the pace of the education or the career. However, someone who does not actually suffer from ADHD and is merely gaining a diagnosis and accomodations to rise above the middle of the pack would do just fine. It’s part of the “everyone gets a trophy” culture. Does everyone need top scores and grades, followed by an elite education to have a great career? Obviously not, but everyone wants that for their kid. The issue is that people learn differently, people naturally excel at some things and not others, and until recently, those characteristics actually helped people find a career that they were naturally good at. But now, if you’re getting As in everything but Cs in math, that is seen as a disability and something that can be fixed with meds and accomodations.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that on paper, these kids who don’t axtuallu need accomodations look better than the kids who just worked hard to get the best grades they could.

I find this mindset fascinating. To assume that every kid who has a legitimate diagnosis will be disadvantaged for life and no prospects for a fruitful career is just ignorant.

Let's take a look at some famous people with ADHD:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dalearcher/2014/05/14/adhd-the-entrepreneurs-superpower/#41ab26ad59e9
https://www.elitedaily.com/money/10-successful-people-adhd
http://addadult.com/add-education-center/famous-people-with-adhd/


1. Walt Disney
2. Michael Phelps
3. Justin Timberlake
4. Jim Carrey
5. David Neeleman (founder of Jet Blue)
6. John F. Kennedy
7. Will Smith
8. Richard Branson (British business magnate)
9. Michael Jordan
10. Albert Einstein
11. James Carville
12. Glen Beck
13. Paul Orfalea, Founder of Kinko's
14. Ingvar Kamprad, Founder of Ikea
15. Many many famous actors, athletes, and other celebrities -- I could go on and on

[Anonymous]

The people complaining about the test accommodations are also the ones who are jealous of the URMs who are getting their spots in the elite schools. Deal with it people. You have privilege and a healthy brain, so you don't need to whine about people who are getting the assistance they need to create an equal playing field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Under normal circumstances, no. Someone with ADHD could not keep up with the pace of the education or the career. However, someone who does not actually suffer from ADHD and is merely gaining a diagnosis and accomodations to rise above the middle of the pack would do just fine. It’s part of the “everyone gets a trophy” culture. Does everyone need top scores and grades, followed by an elite education to have a great career? Obviously not, but everyone wants that for their kid. The issue is that people learn differently, people naturally excel at some things and not others, and until recently, those characteristics actually helped people find a career that they were naturally good at. But now, if you’re getting As in everything but Cs in math, that is seen as a disability and something that can be fixed with meds and accomodations.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that on paper, these kids who don’t axtuallu need accomodations look better than the kids who just worked hard to get the best grades they could.

I find this mindset fascinating. To assume that every kid who has a legitimate diagnosis will be disadvantaged for life and no prospects for a fruitful career is just ignorant.

Let's take a look at some famous people with ADHD:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dalearcher/2014/05/14/adhd-the-entrepreneurs-superpower/#41ab26ad59e9
https://www.elitedaily.com/money/10-successful-people-adhd
http://addadult.com/add-education-center/famous-people-with-adhd/


1. Walt Disney
2. Michael Phelps
3. Justin Timberlake
4. Jim Carrey
5. David Neeleman (founder of Jet Blue)
6. John F. Kennedy
7. Will Smith
8. Richard Branson (British business magnate)
9. Michael Jordan
10. Albert Einstein
11. James Carville
12. Glen Beck
13. Paul Orfalea, Founder of Kinko's
14. Ingvar Kamprad, Founder of Ikea
15. Many many famous actors, athletes, and other celebrities -- I could go on and on

This is a great list of people who chose to use their strengths to accomplish their dreams. Some on your list are only speculations, many had dyslexia, which is vastly different than ADHD. I don’t think anyone here has issues with people who have legitimate disabilities getting help. However, there is a large population of people who have their children diagnosed simply so they can maintain straight As, when one has to consider whether a B indicates a significant disability in the first place. Many will say, but those kids are capable of getting As...they just need extra time...well, the same could be said of nearly every kid getting Bs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The people complaining about the test accommodations are also the ones who are jealous of the URMs who are getting their spots in the elite schools. Deal with it people. You have privilege and a healthy brain, so you don't need to whine about people who are getting the assistance they need to create an equal playing field.

They are also sueing Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The people complaining about the test accommodations are also the ones who are jealous of the URMs who are getting their spots in the elite schools. Deal with it people. You have privilege and a healthy brain, so you don't need to whine about people who are getting the assistance they need to create an equal playing field.

ADHD is a healthy brain. Just brought up with little to no discipline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The people complaining about the test accommodations are also the ones who are jealous of the URMs who are getting their spots in the elite schools. Deal with it people. You have privilege and a healthy brain, so you don't need to whine about people who are getting the assistance they need to create an equal playing field.

So you think 25+% of the childhood/teen population has ADHD. Yeah, right. It is the most over diagnosed disorder in the country. A kid fidgits or does bad on tests and they are popping chemicals in them within weeks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted earlier recommending a tutor. The thing is, a tutor is necessary to figure out the strategies and to go over the wrong answers her so she can see what she did wrong. The tutor will provide your daughter with strategies on how to approach certain questions, and what to look for. My DS had a 33 in his mock tests as a rising junior. After a few months of tutoring, he took the test in February and scored a 35. The tutor will help your DD improve her score significantly, especially the lower scores. It is a worthwhile investment.

This is a great example illustrating why the ACT and SAT are of limited value for colleges and why the Harvard lawsuit will fail.

Exactly. High scores have reduced value because they can be bought and/or made into an extracurricular activity.

+1

That is why schools with holistic admissions can see who probably aid for their higher test scores.

Those of you referring to "paying for" scores-- do you mean, paying for prep courses?

I'll say "yes", and I'll plead guilty to doing it for my own kids. What I won't do is claim that they are somehow being victimized because DD's 1570 doesn't impress Harvard.

Harvard clearly discriminated. A judge has ordered the release of its admission data. I won't tell my kids they are being victimized either but have to remind them to work extra hard to level the "holistic" bias against them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does a child get extra time if the whole basis of the ACT test is quick thinking and time management? Do they get like 10 extra minutes or like an hour?

My DD has a class of 79 kids and 23 are on accommodations. That is just ridiculous. I hope they have to disclose they are on accommodations. Do colleges give extra time? Do jobs and bosses give extra time? I mean come on.

Neither schools nor ACT/SAT are allowed to disclose accomodations. These kids go on to elite schools where they are once again legally obligated to receive accomodations.

And how does this work in the real word?

In the real world you aren't required to take a test on a time crunch. You have deadlines and ask for extensions when needed. That's the real world. Signed, an high successful adult diagnosed with ADHD

You are saying people on Wall Street, lawyers, doctors, business managers, engineers, etc... don’t have time crunches? They ask for deadlines because they can’t focus all the time? Yeah, okay.

So you are saying a kid who has ADHD and got accommodations would never be able to be a lawyer, doctor, business manager, or engineer?

The real world is not a timed test for 50 minutes. In the real world, a person can choose the occupation that suits him or her and that utilizes that person's natural aptitudes. The real world is not giving the same test to the entire population. I am sure a very successful lawyer with ADHD who is weak in math would not have chosen a profession in computer science or engineering. Just as an statistician with ADHD who is weak in memorization would not have chosen a career in law. My kid has ADHD, although not severe. He happens to be gifted in math, so I am not worried about his prospects. I have every confidence he will be great at whatever field he chooses, but in the meantime, he will continue to use his accommodations in high school and college.

Probably not, no.

Someone who has severe ADHD but who is gifted at math would do better to be a Math professor and not an engineer. Engineering is a brutal, on demand, endless task oriented education - that’s probably not a good fit. Math is more about thinking and it’s not necessarily time dependent, especially at the higher levels. There are a LOT of ‘different’ math professors too - as long as your brain works for math you can be and act however you want, people only care about your math skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people jump all over the unfairness of extra time, is really just more evidence for the effectiveness of prep. The student who would have a perfect score with a little more time is exactly the student who could be coached to get a perfect score under actual test conditions. (As long as they don't have a disability.) Which is exactly why these tests have only limited meaning.

You cannot actually fix stupid, nope.


You people need to take a practice test and see if you can get a perfect score after some practice or even with unlimited time. Try it . Not a chance.

If someone is getting wrong answers because they're confused by questions, it might be impossible to fix that. But if someone understands every question given enough time and relaxed conditions, that's not stupid, and, yep they can improve their score.

And, meant to say, I have recently taken a sample ACT, which is exactly why I came to this conclusion. Yes, I missed things, and happily DC beat my score (which is my only goal) but neither of us found anything we didn't understand. The material is quite easy, some questions are designed to catch careless reading--experience is key, and speed comes with practice.

You took the whole hours long test under timed conditions and what was your score? And then you studied - and what was your score
I think that you are completely trivializing these tests - they are not easy and the vast majority of people couldn’t get a score in the high 90th percentiles no matter how much they studied.