why do people prefer AP schools to IB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.

Not the PP, but you are both rambling and insulting. It reflects very poorly on the costly IB infrastructure that FCPS has apparently decided to maintain despite the poor performance of most IB schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.

Gee. Thanks. Suggest you go back and read the question. And, no, that question did not address the total cost of the tests. It only included the registration fee. There is an additional cost per test. So, no, it did not include everything.

I wish you would give me an example of what the IB coordinators teach. In my experience, they only teach one class or so. Hardly a full time job. And, my question was to see what the total costs are of both programs per pupil. From the data in the budget it appears that IB costs twice as much per school--but that is only by making assumptions.

Your budget question does not address that at all. It addresses only one aspect. You can argue the point that you prefer it to AP, but that is an argument of opinion. We have far more kids transferring from other places that have AP than for IB. That is a fact.


You clearly prefer IB. I get that. Thanks for calling me lazy. Is that what they teach in IB? Insults? I've got one for you: Learn to add.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.

I'm the PP you insulted. Here you go:

From the Budget Questions:
FY 2018
Response to Questions of the FY 2018 Budget
School Board Member Requesting Information: Elizabeth Schultz
Answer Prepared By: Sloan J. Presidio
Date Prepared: March 9, 2017
Question:
How much does FCPS pay for the IB registration fee per student on top of the IB exam fee per student?
Response:
Full IB Diploma candidates pay a one-time registration fee of $168 that covers exams taken during students’ junior and senior year.
IB Course students (anyone not pursing the full IB Diploma) pay a registration fee of $168 for each year of exams (junior and/or senior year).
For FY 2017, FCPS paid 3,266 registration fees at $168 each for a total of $548,688 in registration fees.

So, no, the total for test fees and registration is NOT $548,688. That is for the registration fees alone. The test fees are in ADDITION to this number.

Apology accepted.

[Anonymous]

The FCPS Program Budget has an entire section on IB. You can compare the cost per pupil there for IB to the other section on with all the details for AP including the number of students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.

I'm the PP you insulted. Here you go:

From the Budget Questions:
FY 2018
Response to Questions of the FY 2018 Budget
School Board Member Requesting Information: Elizabeth Schultz
Answer Prepared By: Sloan J. Presidio
Date Prepared: March 9, 2017
Question:
How much does FCPS pay for the IB registration fee per student on top of the IB exam fee per student?
Response:
Full IB Diploma candidates pay a one-time registration fee of $168 that covers exams taken during students’ junior and senior year.
IB Course students (anyone not pursing the full IB Diploma) pay a registration fee of $168 for each year of exams (junior and/or senior year).
For FY 2017, FCPS paid 3,266 registration fees at $168 each for a total of $548,688 in registration fees.

So, no, the total for test fees and registration is NOT $548,688. That is for the registration fees alone. The test fees are in ADDITION to this number.

Apology accepted.

Not sure whom I'm responding to. I pointed you to the Program Budget for total enrollment and spend on each program. The cost per pupil for each program can be found there. You have evidently not looked at it (the basis for my characterization of your lack of action as "lazy" and your assertions to be "uninformed"). The Budget Questions that I posted (you're welcome) states, in part, that the one-time registration fee of $168covers exams in the Junior and Senior years.

I don't have a preference for either program - and I don't pretend to know everything. I have looked at the expenses and talked with IB Coordinators to be informed - because I wondered if FCPS might save real money by getting rid of IB. With what I know, I don't believe there is a large savings to be realized and I understand some of the perceived benefits (which I shared with you).

I hope my contributions to this discussion have been helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

DP here. In that general area near Tysons, Langley, McLean and Madison are the three sought-after schools, and they are all AP.

They aren't sought after because they are AP, they are sought after because of SES in their catchment districts, which higher than that in Marshall district. Marshall High performs better and is more desirable than say, Falls Church High - AP school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

We did! We were looking in Vienna (and a little in Reston and along the Ffx Pkwy). Any house zoned for an IB school was a deal-breaker right off. There were a number of houses in the upper Vienna (Beulah area with names like Prelude and the like) and they were in our price range and a little more up to date than others in the Madison zone. I had to explain to our realtor why none of them would work (b/c of IB). It was just a no-go for me. (In theory, I think IB diploma candidates are amazing, and the program sounds good on paper. I just wasn't willing to hook my kids into that program or have to drive them to an AP school day in and day out if we were in an IB zone.). Maybe that isn't the case for other people, but it has been the case for me with Edison (in the past when we looked over there), Robinson (when looking down the parkway) and South Lakes (when looking in Reston).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

DP here. In that general area near Tysons, Langley, McLean and Madison are the three sought-after schools, and they are all AP.

They aren't sought after because they are AP, they are sought after because of SES in their catchment districts, which higher than that in Marshall district. Marshall High performs better and is more desirable than say, Falls Church High - AP school.

They are sought after because they are AP as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

We did! We were looking in Vienna (and a little in Reston and along the Ffx Pkwy). Any house zoned for an IB school was a deal-breaker right off. There were a number of houses in the upper Vienna (Beulah area with names like Prelude and the like) and they were in our price range and a little more up to date than others in the Madison zone. I had to explain to our realtor why none of them would work (b/c of IB). It was just a no-go for me. (In theory, I think IB diploma candidates are amazing, and the program sounds good on paper. I just wasn't willing to hook my kids into that program or have to drive them to an AP school day in and day out if we were in an IB zone.). Maybe that isn't the case for other people, but it has been the case for me with Edison (in the past when we looked over there), Robinson (when looking down the parkway) and South Lakes (when looking in Reston).

Prelude goes to Madison. Anything south of Clarks Crossing goes to Madison. Your realtor should have known this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

We did! We were looking in Vienna (and a little in Reston and along the Ffx Pkwy). Any house zoned for an IB school was a deal-breaker right off. There were a number of houses in the upper Vienna (Beulah area with names like Prelude and the like) and they were in our price range and a little more up to date than others in the Madison zone. I had to explain to our realtor why none of them would work (b/c of IB). It was just a no-go for me. (In theory, I think IB diploma candidates are amazing, and the program sounds good on paper. I just wasn't willing to hook my kids into that program or have to drive them to an AP school day in and day out if we were in an IB zone.). Maybe that isn't the case for other people, but it has been the case for me with Edison (in the past when we looked over there), Robinson (when looking down the parkway) and South Lakes (when looking in Reston).

Prelude goes to Madison. Anything south of Clarks Crossing goes to Madison. Your realtor should have known this.

It's my mistake relying on my memory of street names from 18 mos ago! The "musical" street names were a no-go b/c they feed to Kilmer, with most of Kilmer going to Marshall. Just a small percentage of Kilmer's kids (the musical streets) go to Madison. However, I didn't want my rising MS-er to make friends in Kilmer only to have to start almost entirely over in HS at Madison. So that isn't really germane to this discussion. However, there are houses on the east side of Vienna that our realtor suggested to us, that fed into Marshall and those were DOA b/c of the IB program. I may have thought more of them were Marshall zoned and dismissed them for that reason.

The point is -- -at least some people consider IB-schools "deal breakers" and I was one last year when looking to buy. We ended up in Madison's zone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

We did! We were looking in Vienna (and a little in Reston and along the Ffx Pkwy). Any house zoned for an IB school was a deal-breaker right off. There were a number of houses in the upper Vienna (Beulah area with names like Prelude and the like) and they were in our price range and a little more up to date than others in the Madison zone. I had to explain to our realtor why none of them would work (b/c of IB). It was just a no-go for me. (In theory, I think IB diploma candidates are amazing, and the program sounds good on paper. I just wasn't willing to hook my kids into that program or have to drive them to an AP school day in and day out if we were in an IB zone.). Maybe that isn't the case for other people, but it has been the case for me with Edison (in the past when we looked over there), Robinson (when looking down the parkway) and South Lakes (when looking in Reston).

Prelude goes to Madison. Anything south of Clarks Crossing goes to Madison. Your realtor should have known this.

It's my mistake relying on my memory of street names from 18 mos ago! The "musical" street names were a no-go b/c they feed to Kilmer, with most of Kilmer going to Marshall. Just a small percentage of Kilmer's kids (the musical streets) go to Madison. However, I didn't want my rising MS-er to make friends in Kilmer only to have to start almost entirely over in HS at Madison. So that isn't really germane to this discussion. However, there are houses on the east side of Vienna that our realtor suggested to us, that fed into Marshall and those were DOA b/c of the IB program. I may have thought more of them were Marshall zoned and dismissed them for that reason.

The point is -- -at least some people consider IB-schools "deal breakers" and I was one last year when looking to buy. We ended up in Madison's zone.

We had the same experience. We avoided the Marshall district because we wanted a middle school where most students continued on to an AP high school

That's not to say some people don't prefer IB or that it isn't good for some students. But is AP preferred overall because of its greater flexibility? Of course, and it's not something that should long to confirm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I guess Loudoun decided it wasn't worth the expense? Loudoun has the highest household incomes in the country. If they thought IB was a good idea, they could certainly afford it.

Most families seem to prefer AP. Also, please consider this: we have a mobile society. Far more American schools offer AP than IB. What happens when a teen who has been in an AP program transfers to an IB school?

And, while Loudoun might be quite wealthy, I'm sure they consider value for expense. Hands down, AP wins.

PP, the bigger issue in Loudoun is that it's kind of a cluster in terms of schools and resources. With the massive population growth, the county spends a substantial sum on building schools (most of which are smaller than FCPS) in order to meet the demands of population growth. The county actually spends less on direct instruction and academic programs because it doesn't have the means to continue to build schools to meet the population growth and do expensive programs. IB is an example. The AAP program is another. Loudoun just doesn't have the resources to cover everything.

Another wrinkle and bigger reason why it's a cluster is that its population also isn't supportive of bonds or tax increases specifically for the schools. The county's politicians definitely seem in the pocket of developers, so the money that exists go to building schools (which is needed but not necessarily handled on the most efficient scale--see, small schools).

Fairfax has more resources because it's essentially built out save for a handful of elementary schools and expanding capacity here or there (or building the new high school in Herndon). It's sort of apples to oranges.

Back on topic. One thing I've found interesting is that in IB schools like Robinson is that its students who sign up for the diploma have high pass rates (in the 80's percentile I think) and that nearly 25 percent of the class is signed up for the diploma. That's quite large.

So only around 20% of Robinson's graduating class ends up with a high pass rate in IB? That seems very low for a school like Robinson full of high performing students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So I guess Loudoun decided it wasn't worth the expense? Loudoun has the highest household incomes in the country. If they thought IB was a good idea, they could certainly afford it.

Most families seem to prefer AP. Also, please consider this: we have a mobile society. Far more American schools offer AP than IB. What happens when a teen who has been in an AP program transfers to an IB school?

And, while Loudoun might be quite wealthy, I'm sure they consider value for expense. Hands down, AP wins.

PP, the bigger issue in Loudoun is that it's kind of a cluster in terms of schools and resources. With the massive population growth, the county spends a substantial sum on building schools (most of which are smaller than FCPS) in order to meet the demands of population growth. The county actually spends less on direct instruction and academic programs because it doesn't have the means to continue to build schools to meet the population growth and do expensive programs. IB is an example. The AAP program is another. Loudoun just doesn't have the resources to cover everything.

Another wrinkle and bigger reason why it's a cluster is that its population also isn't supportive of bonds or tax increases specifically for the schools. The county's politicians definitely seem in the pocket of developers, so the money that exists go to building schools (which is needed but not necessarily handled on the most efficient scale--see, small schools).

Fairfax has more resources because it's essentially built out save for a handful of elementary schools and expanding capacity here or there (or building the new high school in Herndon). It's sort of apples to oranges.

Back on topic. One thing I've found interesting is that in IB schools like Robinson is that its students who sign up for the diploma have high pass rates (in the 80's percentile I think) and that nearly 25 percent of the class is signed up for the diploma. That's quite large.

So only around 20% of Robinson's graduating class ends up with a high pass rate in IB? That seems very low for a school like Robinson full of high performing students.

No, only 20 percent of Robinson students complete the diploma. That's a much more difficult task than just passing a single exam (which many more students inevitably do considering at least 80 percent of the students take a course).

I don't know if there's a way to make a comparison to AP, honestly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.

Those numbers did not include the required additional IB staff at each IB school. So the cost is probably over one million more for far fewer IB schools and students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.

Those numbers did not include the required additional IB staff at each IB school. So the cost is probably over one million more for far fewer IB schools and students.

Still deducing without looking up the data - even when I told you where to look. You may be right. You maybe wrong. You've added nothing. Sad.