why do people prefer AP schools to IB?

[Anonymous]

Amazing to watch this same troll post so many replies to himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.

Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.

How many, and how do you know?

I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?

Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.

Your experience is outdated.

The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.

I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.

From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.

I looked at several pairs of similar AP and IB schools (Woodson/Robinson, McLean/Marshall, and Falls Church/Stuart). In each case, the AP schools have higher percentages of reported students taking and receiving passing scores on AP exams compared to IB exams. Surprisingly, the difference was most pronounced at McLean compared to Marshall, regarded as one of the better IB schools.

Perhaps that means that the IB exams are tougher, but it seems equally, if not more, likely that students are more receptive to taking advanced courses at the AP schools. Given that we pay more for IB, yet fewer students seem to derive benefits from it, I'm not surprised that another school system like Loudoun might look at the experience in Fairfax and say "no thanks" when it comes to IB,

Where are you getting this data? I worked at one of these sets.

AP passage rates are higher as a general point (the College Board considers a 3 to be passing but many colleges don't...I think that's a reason why its pass rates are higher).

IB pass rates are lower. Some argue it's because the IB program is graded with more rigor than the AP program. They point to the fact that students often have to re-do AP coursework to get a sufficient foundation prior to taking more advanced college coursework. IB students often have the same issue, so I don't know if that's true, but it's something bandied about.

IB is viewed as more rigorous because it requires cross disciplinary advanced studies. As I mentioned, not many AP students accomplish this, but those that do are considered as having completed the most rigorous coursework (akin to the diploma).

This does indicate that FCPS is getting FAR better value from AP than IB.
If the county wants to continue with the IB program, they should pick one or two schools (at most) to have IB.

Personally, I would get rid of it. It's just not practical.

But your assumption is that pass rates equals effectiveness. It's been proven that the advanced coursework alone improves college retention and completion regardless of pass rates on these tests (I don't have the studies handy, but they exist). It's also true that colleges cap the amount of credit available to students to about 30-35 credits, but many of these students have to re-do courses because they don't have the knowledge to skip. Those students do well because they slow down and get a stronger foundation which was obviously built on being exposed to the content in high school.

I don't think college credit is the end all be all considering this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.

Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.

How many, and how do you know?

I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?

Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.

Your experience is outdated.

The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.

I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.

From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.

I looked at several pairs of similar AP and IB schools (Woodson/Robinson, McLean/Marshall, and Falls Church/Stuart). In each case, the AP schools have higher percentages of reported students taking and receiving passing scores on AP exams compared to IB exams. Surprisingly, the difference was most pronounced at McLean compared to Marshall, regarded as one of the better IB schools.

Perhaps that means that the IB exams are tougher, but it seems equally, if not more, likely that students are more receptive to taking advanced courses at the AP schools. Given that we pay more for IB, yet fewer students seem to derive benefits from it, I'm not surprised that another school system like Loudoun might look at the experience in Fairfax and say "no thanks" when it comes to IB,

Where are you getting this data? I worked at one of these sets.

AP passage rates are higher as a general point (the College Board considers a 3 to be passing but many colleges don't...I think that's a reason why its pass rates are higher).

IB pass rates are lower. Some argue it's because the IB program is graded with more rigor than the AP program. They point to the fact that students often have to re-do AP coursework to get a sufficient foundation prior to taking more advanced college coursework. IB students often have the same issue, so I don't know if that's true, but it's something bandied about.

IB is viewed as more rigorous because it requires cross disciplinary advanced studies. As I mentioned, not many AP students accomplish this, but those that do are considered as having completed the most rigorous coursework (akin to the diploma).

This does indicate that FCPS is getting FAR better value from AP than IB.
If the county wants to continue with the IB program, they should pick one or two schools (at most) to have IB.

Personally, I would get rid of it. It's just not practical.

But your assumption is that pass rates equals effectiveness. It's been proven that the advanced coursework alone improves college retention and completion regardless of pass rates on these tests (I don't have the studies handy, but they exist). It's also true that colleges cap the amount of credit available to students to about 30-35 credits, but many of these students have to re-do courses because they don't have the knowledge to skip. Those students do well because they slow down and get a stronger foundation which was obviously built on being exposed to the content in high school.

I don't think college credit is the end all be all considering this.

So? Are you equating AP with college credit and IB with college preparedness. That doesn't quite fly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Amazing to watch this same troll post so many replies to himself.

He/she is a retired Woodson guidance counselor who had a kid at Robinson.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.

No wonder people prefer the AP schools.

No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.

The only FCPS schools with more National Merit Semifinalist this year than Marshall were TJ, McLean, and Langley. That's impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.

No wonder people prefer the AP schools.

No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.

The only FCPS schools with more National Merit Semifinalist this year than Marshall were TJ, McLean, and Langley. That's impressive.

Add Madison. Still very impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.

No wonder people prefer the AP schools.

No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.

The only FCPS schools with more National Merit Semifinalist this year than Marshall were TJ, McLean, and Langley. That's impressive.

Add Madison. Still very impressive.

Unfortunately, Marshall had more semifinalists than the seven other IB schools in the county combined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.

Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.

How many, and how do you know?

I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?

Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.

Your experience is outdated.

The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.

I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.

From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.

I looked at several pairs of similar AP and IB schools (Woodson/Robinson, McLean/Marshall, and Falls Church/Stuart). In each case, the AP schools have higher percentages of reported students taking and receiving passing scores on AP exams compared to IB exams. Surprisingly, the difference was most pronounced at McLean compared to Marshall, regarded as one of the better IB schools.

Perhaps that means that the IB exams are tougher, but it seems equally, if not more, likely that students are more receptive to taking advanced courses at the AP schools. Given that we pay more for IB, yet fewer students seem to derive benefits from it, I'm not surprised that another school system like Loudoun might look at the experience in Fairfax and say "no thanks" when it comes to IB,

Where are you getting this data? I worked at one of these sets.

AP passage rates are higher as a general point (the College Board considers a 3 to be passing but many colleges don't...I think that's a reason why its pass rates are higher).

IB pass rates are lower. Some argue it's because the IB program is graded with more rigor than the AP program. They point to the fact that students often have to re-do AP coursework to get a sufficient foundation prior to taking more advanced college coursework. IB students often have the same issue, so I don't know if that's true, but it's something bandied about.

IB is viewed as more rigorous because it requires cross disciplinary advanced studies. As I mentioned, not many AP students accomplish this, but those that do are considered as having completed the most rigorous coursework (akin to the diploma).

This does indicate that FCPS is getting FAR better value from AP than IB.
If the county wants to continue with the IB program, they should pick one or two schools (at most) to have IB.

Personally, I would get rid of it. It's just not practical.

But your assumption is that pass rates equals effectiveness. It's been proven that the advanced coursework alone improves college retention and completion regardless of pass rates on these tests (I don't have the studies handy, but they exist). It's also true that colleges cap the amount of credit available to students to about 30-35 credits, but many of these students have to re-do courses because they don't have the knowledge to skip. Those students do well because they slow down and get a stronger foundation which was obviously built on being exposed to the content in high school.

I don't think college credit is the end all be all considering this.

So? Are you equating AP with college credit and IB with college preparedness. That doesn't quite fly.

No, I'm not saying that. I would say either does a good job with college preparedness, including retention and completion. I just don't think getting college credit is the end all be all. A lot of times students have to re-do courses anyway. I don't think you can distinguish between the programs on that point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.

No wonder people prefer the AP schools.

No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.

Sure they are. And when Falls Church gets renovated like Marshall in a few years, the transfers from FCHS will drop.

They aren't getting a new crop of students to go with new paint, you know.

[Anonymous]

Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.

No wonder people prefer the AP schools.

No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.

The only FCPS schools with more National Merit Semifinalist this year than Marshall were TJ, McLean, and Langley. That's impressive.

Add Madison. Still very impressive.

Unfortunately, Marshall had more semifinalists than the seven other IB schools in the county combined.

Which should tell you that it's the SES of the school population, not IB/AP dichotomy, that predicts performance. Marshall is more affluent than other IB schools, ergo, it performs better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.

No wonder people prefer the AP schools.

No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.

The only FCPS schools with more National Merit Semifinalist this year than Marshall were TJ, McLean, and Langley. That's impressive.

Add Madison. Still very impressive.

Unfortunately, Marshall had more semifinalists than the seven other IB schools in the county combined.

Marshall also has more NM semifinalists that the following AP schools combined:

Hayfield
South County
West Potomac
Falls Church
Herndon
Fairfax
West Springfield

These schools have 4 NM semifinalists combined. Marshall has 7.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

You are confusing "people prefer AP" with "people prefer to buy real estate in school districts that happen to be zoned to AP schools". You don't know that people buy there BECAUSE of AP offerings at schools, or that they wouldn't be if AP was not offered. The fact that Marshall is an IB school did not slow down the buying in its district. Quality of schools is a factor of SES of people zoned for these schools. An IB school in a rich area will be better than an AP school in a poor area. I sincerely hope that is not a surprise to you.

DP here. In that general area near Tysons, Langley, McLean and Madison are the three sought-after schools, and they are all AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line: IB costs significantly more and more people prefer AP in any case.

Sure fire information that will ensure the SB never changes it. It makes too much sense to eliminate IB programs in some of the schools.

Where did you find that IB costs significantly more? I pointed you to the Program Budget but you haven't taken the time to look at it. The numbers from the Budget Questions show that the testing fees for IB are approximately half a million per year - total. The IB Coordinators also teach. There are other benefits to the school system from IB, including development of the teachers (which FCPS pays lots of consultants for in AP schools) and a rigorous testing program that is graded by unaffiliated experts - these tests also allow for IB students and theschool division to be ranked against competition from around the world. Finally, IB is a well regarded and accepted program for many international students who may come here for postings and then return to their foreign universities - U.S. citizens who are posted overseas often have IB programs in local schools and can continue their instruction when they are posted back to this area.

Your simple assertions are uninformed and you are too lazy to make the effort to learn even the basics - these are not qualities that lead to success in either AP or IB.