Parents who don't allow their kids to major in liberal arts

[Anonymous]

College is almost purely vocational for the 60% of students who attend colleges that are basically non-selective. Even among the 2nd and 3rd tier schools, a liberal arts degree will more often than not lead to K-12 teaching unless the student is really exceptional and gets into a top grad program. And, don't kid yourself by thinking DC can go anywhere for undergrad and assume DC could always go to Harvard for grad school.

But, it is a whole different story at an elite school. Since you can't major in business administration or pharmacy at the Ivies, parents with no knowledge/experience of the upper reaches of the hierarchy, insist on STEM. But in fact, there is only a very small differential for econ majors at the elite consulting firms and Wall St and the bulk of six-figure jobs for recent grads. The most prestigious and highest paying employers are almost always very open to liberal arts majors and make an effort to get a good mix in their recruiting pool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting topic to me - We were at Ponte Vedra Beach in Florida a couple of weeks ago and I sat across from a guy at dinner who does all the executive level hiring for a large company based in Jacksonville. He said the trend now is swinging towards a preference for liberal arts majors. He said he can teach things specific to his industry, but he can't teach people to write. And the ability to write well is the most important thing. His experience is that liberal arts majors are better writers and better at thinking critically and solving complex problems.

Of course that's just one company. I'm sure there are examples of hiring managers who don't like liberal arts majors. I just thought it was interesting because his company is definitely what most would consider techy.

NP here. Interested to see this. My husband is a senior IT manager and despairs when he sees the lax or nonexistent writing skills of most of the people -- both recent graduates and more experienced employees -- who apply for jobs with his firm. He insists that if a tech person cannot write well enough, or speak well enough, to convey things clearly to their clients, then the managers end up doing far too much hand-holding and trying to teach the basics of communication to workers who were fed the idea that if they know enough math and computer science they are going to be golden. The reality, at least at his company is that tech professionals who just sit and code all day do exist, but the ones who get ahead are the ones who can write and speak well enough to translate their work for their users.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was a liberal arts major (English) and now out earn many of my business major friends. They earned more right out of college, I earn more in middle age.

Assuming you took statistics and perhaps even some math, can you please report back the median income your liberal arts classmates make now, vs. what your comparably smart business major friends make?

Btw, once of the wealthiest people I know didn't even finish high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quite frankly, and I am speaking as manager who has been involved in hiring college graduates for many years, we prefer those who have a STEM degree for the most part.

Now if a liberal arts major is from a top notch school, that would be a positive. The only reasonably assured path for someone with a liberal arts degree is to then go to grad school, law school or the medical field or a field where there are decent employment prospects.

I am not impressed with examples of people who went to a liberal arts school and then did very well whether they majored in philosophy, etc. There was a time through the nineties when that was a viable route to well paying jobs. But the economy has changed and what worked several decades ago does not do so any longer.

Yes, there may be exceptions even today, but with the cost of college being what it is today it would be foolhardy to ignore the realities of today's economy.

You're assuming liberal arts people want to work for you. I think what you're seeing here is many who decide to take the unconventional path and major in liberal arts also take unconventional paths when it comes to career and find a way to make it work for them. And I'm going to bet for many liberal arts majors the idea of toiling away in an office is not super high on the desires list, hence pursuing jobs that allow for creativity.

Sure, if you have a trust fund, you don't have to work in an office. The only other option is barista or similar service position that never required a degree to begin with. A very small percentage of those people will be able to earn a living wage working in an unconventional job. A few live that dream with a lot of talent and luck, but even most very talented people will eventually have to work for the man (or the woman, you know what I mean).

Actually, those aren't the only options. Not by a long shot. But keep believing what you've been told.

Please, supply me with a list of viable careers for a liberal arts major that does not involve working a 9-5 job. Even most photography majors have to wait tables to make ends meet.

let's see... entrepreneur for one. That covers a whole range of options, including owning your own business. Millennials have been statistically much more likely to open their own business than any other age group. And it's one of the best paths to wealth.

Just because you live in DC where everyone works for the government in an office job, does not mean everyone needs to do that.

You couldn't be anymore wrong. This is another person that hasn't lived in DC long enough to know there are so many jobs there that it is unreal, and not all of them involve the government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The most prestigious and highest paying employers are almost always very open to liberal arts majors and make an effort to get a good mix in their recruiting pool.

They're open to liberals arts majors from elite colleges*

A history major from UChicago blows away a history major from American or UMD. Like, it's not even close - the UChicago kid makes them look like 8th graders.

[Anonymous]

Thinking about this whole conversation over the weekend. Thinking it's kind of a rehash of those previous generations where Junior was required to either go into Dad's business or go to medical school - regardless of his actual inclinations or happiness.

Here's my take on it: You're being a selfish parent if you force your child to do something that will make them deeply unhappy because you are not the one who will pay the price for that child's unhappiness. You know who will? Your son's unfortunate spouse and your son's unfortunate children.

My dad was forced to go to medical school and he HATED being a doctor! He hated his life. He hated working 60 hours a week at a job that he was really, really ill-suited for. He became a mean drunk and took it out on my mom and us kids.

He hoarded his money and quit as soon as he possibly could. The moment he stopped working at a job he hated he was able to quit drinking, he got a job that he loved in our city government, he made friends and he's actually a delightful person to be around.

THe problem is that his kids are still paying the price for having been raised in a house with crazy people who screamed and yelled all the time. His parents? Not so much. THey enjoyed the high-end appliances he bought them, the car, the trips and then they went home.

They were selfish and clueless. Yes, maybe my dad would have been a mean drunk even if his parents didnt force him to be a doctor -- but I suspect it had a lot to do with it.

If you force your child to spend most of their waking hours doing something they hate and are ill-suited for, you are being selfish and self-centered. ANd kind of immature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most prestigious and highest paying employers are almost always very open to liberal arts majors and make an effort to get a good mix in their recruiting pool.

They're open to liberals arts majors from elite colleges*

A history major from UChicago blows away a history major from American or UMD. Like, it's not even close - the UChicago kid makes them look like 8th graders.

+1.

You have to compare apples with apples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thinking about this whole conversation over the weekend. Thinking it's kind of a rehash of those previous generations where Junior was required to either go into Dad's business or go to medical school - regardless of his actual inclinations or happiness.

Here's my take on it: You're being a selfish parent if you force your child to do something that will make them deeply unhappy because you are not the one who will pay the price for that child's unhappiness. You know who will? Your son's unfortunate spouse and your son's unfortunate children.

My dad was forced to go to medical school and he HATED being a doctor! He hated his life. He hated working 60 hours a week at a job that he was really, really ill-suited for. He became a mean drunk and took it out on my mom and us kids.

He hoarded his money and quit as soon as he possibly could. The moment he stopped working at a job he hated he was able to quit drinking, he got a job that he loved in our city government, he made friends and he's actually a delightful person to be around.

THe problem is that his kids are still paying the price for having been raised in a house with crazy people who screamed and yelled all the time. His parents? Not so much. THey enjoyed the high-end appliances he bought them, the car, the trips and then they went home.

They were selfish and clueless. Yes, maybe my dad would have been a mean drunk even if his parents didnt force him to be a doctor -- but I suspect it had a lot to do with it.

If you force your child to spend most of their waking hours doing something they hate and are ill-suited for, you are being selfish and self-centered. ANd kind of immature.

So your grandparents pushed your father into being a top 1-2% student, he achieved success, then segued those credentials into a SECOND successful career and you think they were wrong? If only MORE parents pushed their kids as hard as your grandparents. Way too many coddling and clueless wanna-be their kids best friends, letting them major in easy as pie sociology and psych and marketing... and go ahead and take 5 or 6 years to finish a bachelors!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quite frankly, and I am speaking as manager who has been involved in hiring college graduates for many years, we prefer those who have a STEM degree for the most part.

Now if a liberal arts major is from a top notch school, that would be a positive. The only reasonably assured path for someone with a liberal arts degree is to then go to grad school, law school or the medical field or a field where there are decent employment prospects.

I am not impressed with examples of people who went to a liberal arts school and then did very well whether they majored in philosophy, etc. There was a time through the nineties when that was a viable route to well paying jobs. But the economy has changed and what worked several decades ago does not do so any longer.

Yes, there may be exceptions even today, but with the cost of college being what it is today it would be foolhardy to ignore the realities of today's economy.

You're assuming liberal arts people want to work for you. I think what you're seeing here is many who decide to take the unconventional path and major in liberal arts also take unconventional paths when it comes to career and find a way to make it work for them. And I'm going to bet for many liberal arts majors the idea of toiling away in an office is not super high on the desires list, hence pursuing jobs that allow for creativity.

I am not arguing that it is impossible to be successful with a liberal arts degree. What I am saying is that the odds are decidedly against a person with this background in today's economy.

We have hundreds of applicants from liberal arts colleges - some with commendable academic records - and they don't even get an interview. I am telling you the reality of what the situation is today. It is not a knock on liberal arts colleges or those who graduate from those colleges. It is a changing environment and one must adapt or essentially be unemployable when it comes to the better paying jobs.

There is a viable route but then it involves additional study but even that has challenges. For example, it is difficult to get into a good MBA program at the better schools without several years of work experience at a suitable level. How does one go about getting that experience if one cannot get a decent job?

Let me repeat: I am not knocking liberal arts schools but I am saying that it is foolish - and does a young man or woman a real disservice not to make them aware of what awaits them after spending over $100K getting an undergraduate degree that has limited job prospects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most prestigious and highest paying employers are almost always very open to liberal arts majors and make an effort to get a good mix in their recruiting pool.

They're open to liberals arts majors from elite colleges*

A history major from UChicago blows away a history major from American or UMD. Like, it's not even close - the UChicago kid makes them look like 8th graders.

1000 times THIS. I think it's pretty obvious that a history major from UChicago or an equivalent school will probably do just fine. But students who attend schools like UChicago/Ivies/etc. are less than 1% of all college students. I don't understand why these discussions always revolve around that, considering a minuscule percentage of students graduate from such schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a liberal arts major (English) and now out earn many of my business major friends. They earned more right out of college, I earn more in middle age.

Assuming you took statistics and perhaps even some math, can you please report back the median income your liberal arts classmates make now, vs. what your comparably smart business major friends make?

Btw, once of the wealthiest people I know didn't even finish high school.

Well, I'm the pp. Many of my liberal arts major friends and I make between 50k to 70k per year. The two business major friends make 35k-55k, and keep on getting laid off, now that they are nearing the age of 50. All of us went to non-selective schools, and in our first jobs the business majors earned at least 10k more a year than the liberal arts majors. Now, it has flipped. One major factor is the constant learning one now has to do to keep up. The liberal arts prepared us to keep on learning. You don't have to major in them, or even get a college degree to do so, but learning how to keep on learning really does help later in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a liberal arts major (English) and now out earn many of my business major friends. They earned more right out of college, I earn more in middle age.

Assuming you took statistics and perhaps even some math, can you please report back the median income your liberal arts classmates make now, vs. what your comparably smart business major friends make?

Btw, once of the wealthiest people I know didn't even finish high school.

Well, I'm the pp. Many of my liberal arts major friends and I make between 50k to 70k per year. The two business major friends make 35k-55k, and keep on getting laid off, now that they are nearing the age of 50. All of us went to non-selective schools, and in our first jobs the business majors earned at least 10k more a year than the liberal arts majors. Now, it has flipped. One major factor is the constant learning one now has to do to keep up. The liberal arts prepared us to keep on learning. You don't have to major in them, or even get a college degree to do so, but learning how to keep on learning really does help later in life.

You must be a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quite frankly, and I am speaking as manager who has been involved in hiring college graduates for many years, we prefer those who have a STEM degree for the most part.

Now if a liberal arts major is from a top notch school, that would be a positive. The only reasonably assured path for someone with a liberal arts degree is to then go to grad school, law school or the medical field or a field where there are decent employment prospects.

I am not impressed with examples of people who went to a liberal arts school and then did very well whether they majored in philosophy, etc. There was a time through the nineties when that was a viable route to well paying jobs. But the economy has changed and what worked several decades ago does not do so any longer.

Yes, there may be exceptions even today, but with the cost of college being what it is today it would be foolhardy to ignore the realities of today's economy.

You're assuming liberal arts people want to work for you. I think what you're seeing here is many who decide to take the unconventional path and major in liberal arts also take unconventional paths when it comes to career and find a way to make it work for them. And I'm going to bet for many liberal arts majors the idea of toiling away in an office is not super high on the desires list, hence pursuing jobs that allow for creativity.

I am not arguing that it is impossible to be successful with a liberal arts degree. What I am saying is that the odds are decidedly against a person with this background in today's economy.

We have hundreds of applicants from liberal arts colleges - some with commendable academic records - and they don't even get an interview. I am telling you the reality of what the situation is today. It is not a knock on liberal arts colleges or those who graduate from those colleges. It is a changing environment and one must adapt or essentially be unemployable when it comes to the better paying jobs.

There is a viable route but then it involves additional study but even that has challenges. For example, it is difficult to get into a good MBA program at the better schools without several years of work experience at a suitable level. How does one go about getting that experience if one cannot get a decent job?

Let me repeat: I am not knocking liberal arts schools but I am saying that it is foolish - and does a young man or woman a real disservice not to make them aware of what awaits them after spending over $100K getting an undergraduate degree that has limited job prospects.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The data show that liberal arts majors do achieve gainful employment in a variety of fields.

https://www.aacu.org/sites/default/files/files/LEAP/nchems.pdf

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/22/see-how-liberal-arts-grads-really-fare-report-examines-long-term-data

http://www.augusta.edu/provost/documents/38-how_liberal_arts_and_science_majors_fare_in_employment.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a liberal arts major (English) and now out earn many of my business major friends. They earned more right out of college, I earn more in middle age.

Assuming you took statistics and perhaps even some math, can you please report back the median income your liberal arts classmates make now, vs. what your comparably smart business major friends make?

Btw, once of the wealthiest people I know didn't even finish high school.

Well, I'm the pp. Many of my liberal arts major friends and I make between 50k to 70k per year. The two business major friends make 35k-55k, and keep on getting laid off, now that they are nearing the age of 50. All of us went to non-selective schools, and in our first jobs the business majors earned at least 10k more a year than the liberal arts majors. Now, it has flipped. One major factor is the constant learning one now has to do to keep up. The liberal arts prepared us to keep on learning. You don't have to major in them, or even get a college degree to do so, but learning how to keep on learning really does help later in life.

You must be a troll.

Nope, just a liberal arts major who has recently relocated to the dc area. The salaries, of course, are non dc, from where I lived previously. Also, the business majors I cite were completely unwilling to relocate for jobs, and most of us with liberal arts degrees had to. And, part of the reason they majored in business was to be able to stay where they grew up and get a job. We all went to non selective schools. I make more as a librarian in a non dc area than my business major friends - again, they aren't open to relocating or retraining. One is retraining as a dental hygienist so he can make more money and have a stable job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a liberal arts major (English) and now out earn many of my business major friends. They earned more right out of college, I earn more in middle age.

Assuming you took statistics and perhaps even some math, can you please report back the median income your liberal arts classmates make now, vs. what your comparably smart business major friends make?

Btw, once of the wealthiest people I know didn't even finish high school.

Well, I'm the pp. Many of my liberal arts major friends and I make between 50k to 70k per year. The two business major friends make 35k-55k, and keep on getting laid off, now that they are nearing the age of 50. All of us went to non-selective schools, and in our first jobs the business majors earned at least 10k more a year than the liberal arts majors. Now, it has flipped. One major factor is the constant learning one now has to do to keep up. The liberal arts prepared us to keep on learning. You don't have to major in them, or even get a college degree to do so, but learning how to keep on learning really does help later in life.

You must be a troll.

Nope, just a liberal arts major who has recently relocated to the dc area. The salaries, of course, are non dc, from where I lived previously. Also, the business majors I cite were completely unwilling to relocate for jobs, and most of us with liberal arts degrees had to. And, part of the reason they majored in business was to be able to stay where they grew up and get a job. We all went to non selective schools. I make more as a librarian in a non dc area than my business major friends - again, they aren't open to relocating or retraining. One is retraining as a dental hygienist so he can make more money and have a stable job.

OK, so all this is lovely and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.