Parents who don't allow their kids to major in liberal arts

[Anonymous]

Colleges can sense the wave - especially the 2nd 3rd and 4th tier toilets where a liberal arts degree is essentially worthless. These LA departments exist at these diploma mills so they can keep immature students unfit for college enrolled. A bachelors would have some value if you removed the ability for any idiot to go pick up a LA degree from the regional commode.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting topic to me - We were at Ponte Vedra Beach in Florida a couple of weeks ago and I sat across from a guy at dinner who does all the executive level hiring for a large company based in Jacksonville. He said the trend now is swinging towards a preference for liberal arts majors. He said he can teach things specific to his industry, but he can't teach people to write. And the ability to write well is the most important thing. His experience is that liberal arts majors are better writers and better at thinking critically and solving complex problems.

Of course that's just one company. I'm sure there are examples of hiring managers who don't like liberal arts majors. I just thought it was interesting because his company is definitely what most would consider techy.

One should already know how to write well before finishing high school. Who goes to college, or get into college, that doesn't already have a college prep high school background with extensive writing?

NP here. Interested to see this. My husband is a senior IT manager and despairs when he sees the lax or nonexistent writing skills of most of the people -- both recent graduates and more experienced employees -- who apply for jobs with his firm. He insists that if a tech person cannot write well enough, or speak well enough, to convey things clearly to their clients, then the managers end up doing far too much hand-holding and trying to teach the basics of communication to workers who were fed the idea that if they know enough math and computer science they are going to be golden. The reality, at least at his company is that tech professionals who just sit and code all day do exist, but the ones who get ahead are the ones who can write and speak well enough to translate their work for their users.

[Anonymous]

One should already know how to write well before finishing high school. Who goes to college, or get into college, that doesn't already have a college prep high school background with extensive writing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One should already know how to write well before finishing high school. Who goes to college, or get into college, that doesn't already have a college prep high school background with extensive writing?

The vast majority of college students and graduates are terrible writers. They use exaggerated wordy jargon in the passive voice (cop-speak) in an attempt to sound more sophisticated. They employ Random Capitalization of nouns. In general, they have no idea how to conceptualize (let alone write) a clear thought. The typical SAT verbal/critical reading score is under 500 - barely a middle school reading level. In part, this is because K-12 schools don't have the resources to assign enough writing projects and because most students do very little reading on their own. Colleges don't really teach those remedial skills because every PhD academic thinks its beneath them. The funny part in real life is how few of them know they are incompetent writers!

[Anonymous]

I taught at Johns Hopkins for a number of years. Most of the undergrads in my classes were not good writers straight out of HS. And that includes kids from MCPS and FCPS who had high GPAs in HS. (I don't remember kids from DC privates.)

In HS, many had learned to write grammatically and some had developed a decent style/voice. But almost everybody needed work on precision, conciseness, how support a thesis, and how to structure an analytic essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One should already know how to write well before finishing high school. Who goes to college, or get into college, that doesn't already have a college prep high school background with extensive writing?

The vast majority of college students and graduates are terrible writers. They use exaggerated wordy jargon in the passive voice (cop-speak) in an attempt to sound more sophisticated. They employ Random Capitalization of nouns. In general, they have no idea how to conceptualize (let alone write) a clear thought. The typical SAT verbal/critical reading score is under 500 - barely a middle school reading level. In part, this is because K-12 schools don't have the resources to assign enough writing projects and because most students do very little reading on their own. Colleges don't really teach those remedial skills because every PhD academic thinks its beneath them. The funny part in real life is how few of them know they are incompetent writers!

I know you. You may be a decent writer but you're overly aggressive and plain rude.

[Anonymous]

LOL, we posted simultaneously. I refrained from talking about diction, but ITA about how, in an attempt to sound sophisticated, lots of kids wrote truly cringe-worthy prose.

I didn't think helping my students improve their writing was beneath me, but it was the relatively rare undergrad who took me up on the offer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:LOL, we posted simultaneously. I refrained from talking about diction, but ITA about how, in an attempt to sound sophisticated, lots of kids wrote truly cringe-worthy prose.

I didn't think helping my students improve their writing was beneath me, but it was the relatively rare undergrad who took me up on the offer.

Can we get an example?

[Anonymous]

Of what? Cringe-worthy prose? Offer of help? Rare undergrad?

And why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted this once a few months ago but I'll post it again. DS did get into the SLAC of his choice - that's the only thing that's changed.

My son is interested in attending a SLAC, he's applied ED to a well-regarded (at least on DCUM) and hopefully he will get in.

I'm being brutally honest and telling you all something that I probably wouldn't admit to in person.

I have a science degree. In fact, I have earned a BS, MS and Doctorate in my field from a great academic institution, state university, tops in my field, etc. I'm regarded as being very smart, able to write well, etc. I have risen to the very top of my profession and earn about 500K per year.

But I when I'm around the liberal arts folks, I feel dumb. I"m not well rounded, I am not as mentally nimble, not as well written or spoken. My program did not allow for courses considered to be "fluff." Electives were from a list, core courses were from a list that were approved by the dept for my major. I worked my ass off to learn how to write, I did learn how to write for publication in grad school and of course for my PhD but scientific writing is different - I basically stink at other styles of writing.

So while I'm very knowledgeable in my field and intelligent, I'm not well-educated and I really regret not having a broader depth of knowledge, a stronger vocabulary, higher order critical thinking, the ability to integrate knowledge from various disciplines, etc.

I would love to engage on the Political forum (the reasonably intelligent posts, not the partisan diatribe crap) but honestly I would just get destroyed by some philosophy major. So, I lurk and basically keep my mouth shut.

Touring SLACs with my son, I fell in love and wish I had the opportunity to not just go to college to get a career, but to go to college for an education. I could still have my career.

So, I will encourage my kids to go the SLAC route, pick an interesting major and quite honestly, if they need another year or two to gain marketable skills I'm fine with helping them out. I want them to take this chance of a lifetime to become a well-rounded person.

So damn the graphs and the articles and the experts. I want my kids to be educated first, then we will work on a career.

Oh get over it. You're better educated than 95% of the people in this country

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted this once a few months ago but I'll post it again. DS did get into the SLAC of his choice - that's the only thing that's changed.

My son is interested in attending a SLAC, he's applied ED to a well-regarded (at least on DCUM) and hopefully he will get in.

I'm being brutally honest and telling you all something that I probably wouldn't admit to in person.

I have a science degree. In fact, I have earned a BS, MS and Doctorate in my field from a great academic institution, state university, tops in my field, etc. I'm regarded as being very smart, able to write well, etc. I have risen to the very top of my profession and earn about 500K per year.

But I when I'm around the liberal arts folks, I feel dumb. I"m not well rounded, I am not as mentally nimble, not as well written or spoken. My program did not allow for courses considered to be "fluff." Electives were from a list, core courses were from a list that were approved by the dept for my major. I worked my ass off to learn how to write, I did learn how to write for publication in grad school and of course for my PhD but scientific writing is different - I basically stink at other styles of writing.

So while I'm very knowledgeable in my field and intelligent, I'm not well-educated and I really regret not having a broader depth of knowledge, a stronger vocabulary, higher order critical thinking, the ability to integrate knowledge from various disciplines, etc.

I would love to engage on the Political forum (the reasonably intelligent posts, not the partisan diatribe crap) but honestly I would just get destroyed by some philosophy major. So, I lurk and basically keep my mouth shut.

Touring SLACs with my son, I fell in love and wish I had the opportunity to not just go to college to get a career, but to go to college for an education. I could still have my career.

So, I will encourage my kids to go the SLAC route, pick an interesting major and quite honestly, if they need another year or two to gain marketable skills I'm fine with helping them out. I want them to take this chance of a lifetime to become a well-rounded person.

So damn the graphs and the articles and the experts. I want my kids to be educated first, then we will work on a career.

You do realize that if you had not gone to college to "get a career", you would not be earning $500,000 and in no position to send your son to a $$$ SLAC so that he could just focus on getting an education?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:College is almost purely vocational for the 60% of students who attend colleges that are basically non-selective. Even among the 2nd and 3rd tier schools, a liberal arts degree will more often than not lead to K-12 teaching unless the student is really exceptional and gets into a top grad program. And, don't kid yourself by thinking DC can go anywhere for undergrad and assume DC could always go to Harvard for grad school.

But, it is a whole different story at an elite school. Since you can't major in business administration or pharmacy at the Ivies, parents with no knowledge/experience of the upper reaches of the hierarchy, insist on STEM. But in fact, there is only a very small differential for econ majors at the elite consulting firms and Wall St and the bulk of six-figure jobs for recent grads. The most prestigious and highest paying employers are almost always very open to liberal arts majors and make an effort to get a good mix in their recruiting pool.

And how does this apply to 98% of the students going to college?

[Anonymous]

Sadly, I've met plenty of English majors who are crappy writers. Whether it's poor grammar, incorrect use of vocabulary, or just the inability to convey a concept, I really wonder if most young adults just need more life experience to learn that skill. Sure, some people that age can pull it off and do well but a lot of them need help.

I was never a great writer but at least I had calculus and programming under my belt. Admittedly, I don't use that calculus any more than most of you do, but the programming skills have been a lifetime gift that I'm thrilled to be passing on to my children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One should already know how to write well before finishing high school. Who goes to college, or get into college, that doesn't already have a college prep high school background with extensive writing?

The vast majority of college students and graduates are terrible writers. They use exaggerated wordy jargon in the passive voice (cop-speak) in an attempt to sound more sophisticated. They employ Random Capitalization of nouns. In general, they have no idea how to conceptualize (let alone write) a clear thought. The typical SAT verbal/critical reading score is under 500 - barely a middle school reading level. In part, this is because K-12 schools don't have the resources to assign enough writing projects and because most students do very little reading on their own. Colleges don't really teach those remedial skills because every PhD academic thinks its beneath them. The funny part in real life is how few of them know they are incompetent writers!

The problem there is not writing. It's thinking. And math is key for good thinking -- which is why essentially "math-free" liberal arts makes no sense in my book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One should already know how to write well before finishing high school. Who goes to college, or get into college, that doesn't already have a college prep high school background with extensive writing?

The vast majority of college students and graduates are terrible writers. They use exaggerated wordy jargon in the passive voice (cop-speak) in an attempt to sound more sophisticated. They employ Random Capitalization of nouns. In general, they have no idea how to conceptualize (let alone write) a clear thought. The typical SAT verbal/critical reading score is under 500 - barely a middle school reading level. In part, this is because K-12 schools don't have the resources to assign enough writing projects and because most students do very little reading on their own. Colleges don't really teach those remedial skills because every PhD academic thinks its beneath them. The funny part in real life is how few of them know they are incompetent writers!

The problem there is not writing. It's thinking. And math is key for good thinking -- which is why essentially "math-free" liberal arts makes no sense in my book.

Who on this thread advocated no math?

Statistics should be required for all college graduates.