The subtle micro aggressions of islamophobia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're fishing for information.

Usually people do that when they want to appear confident but are concerned.

Don't be. Your names will not be published. But the islamophobes organization will be, if learned.

No one studies Islam this much and posts anti Islam information almost 24/7 unless they are being paid to do so. This is DC and there are organizations that employ people to study and vilify Islam or other religious groups purely for political reasons. The organizations are covert. The last thing they want is to be exposed.

You are so wrong. I am assuming the other non-Muslim PPs are like me. We have studied Islam, Arab history, lived in the Arab world and we hate to see the misunderstandings about that world, to which we have attachments, generated in our native country. We believe that truth is a positive defense against this.

This requires looking at Islam objectively and explaining context that may work in some societies, but perhaps not in our own. We do not believe the cause is helped by Muslims who continue to foster misunderstanding about their religion, who get caught up in in myriad details of the religion and minutiae in its teachings while missing the big picture, and who insist no one can understand Islam unless they know Arabic and that no one is capable of opining on Islam or Islamic (or pre-Islamic!) history unless they are Muslim.

I believe that both Islam and the history are worthy of rigorous investigation by any knowledgeable person of objective, scholarly bent regardless of religion. This serves the interests of understanding Islam and the Arab and Muslim world. The stance taken by a number of Muslim PPs on this forum leads many to think instead you have something to hide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Well, at best, there will be articles written about islamophobia using your posts. It will draw attention to the kind of hate islamophobes perpetuate, alerting more people. At worst, the writer will uncover the name of the organization you work for that actually pays you to encourage people to hate Islam. Once its name is published, it will receive negative publicity. Donors will be careful to avoid association with it. Your employer will not be pleased to have this exposed.

So either way, your plan backfired.

Nope, no rage here. I'm defending my faith for Allah/God.

You're being ridiculous is what you are. Islam doesn't need defenders like you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, i have two independent sources that say they know you are employed by such an organization. If it sounds shady, its because it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You're fishing for information.

Usually people do that when they want to appear confident but are concerned.

Don't be. Your names will not be published. But the islamophobes organization will be, if learned.

No one studies Islam this much and posts anti Islam information almost 24/7 unless they are being paid to do so. This is DC and there are organizations that employ people to study and vilify Islam or other religious groups purely for political reasons. The organizations are covert. The last thing they want is to be exposed.

Have you warned DCUM's moderator that a journalist is going to contact him to ask for everybody's IP addresses?

And then Homeland Security or NSA or somebody is going to help the journalist out by linking the IP addresses to names?

It seems much more likely that various posters are, you know, married to Muslims (you know there's one of those), ex-Muslims (somebody on another thread recently identified themselves as one) or grew up in Muslim countries. Plus, most everybody here can use google pretty well.

[Anonymous]

I feel like this thread needs to be closed down, or removed, or something. If only to remove these posts that make Muslims look awful (OP herself is anonymous).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this thread needs to be closed down, or removed, or something. If only to remove these posts that make Muslims look awful (OP herself is anonymous).

No, I think it should stand in all its glory.

If anything, someone should make a separate thread quoting all the insults made by the poster who's now shaking her fist at the sky - so that new readers have ready access to the best of her writings.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Have you warned DCUM's moderator that a journalist is going to contact him to ask for everybody's IP addresses?

And then Homeland Security or NSA or somebody is going to help the journalist out by linking the IP addresses to names?

It seems much more likely that various posters are, you know, married to Muslims (you know there's one of those), ex-Muslims (somebody on another thread recently identified themselves as one) or grew up in Muslim countries. Plus, most everybody here can use google pretty well.

This thread has been reported to me a couple of times now. So, let me weigh in.

I was contacted by a poster who asked if I was okay with a reporter writing about this thread. I have no problem with reporters writing about any thread here. To the contrary, I encourage it. My only request is that DCUM be given fair treatment and not reduced to a single, easily-mocked, dimension. When I replied to the poster in question, I mentioned that I have seen no evidence of an organization being behind the postings here. In almost every case that someone makes a reasonable argument that a thread is being sock puppetted or trolled, I will do a cursory review of the posts for evidence of such abuse. If the cursory review suggests abuse is going on, I will did deeper. However, in the case of this thread, I have personally interacted with many of you and you are familiar to me by your posting style. So, I don't even feel the need to do a cursory review. Nor have I done one.

If a reporter contacts me, I will be happy to discuss this or any other thread with the reporter. I will not reveal IP addresses or other identifiable information about the origin of the posts unless, unexpectedly, I did discover that an organization were behind the postings (such a finding will be unlikely given that I have no plans to check).

[Anonymous]

Thanks Jeff.

I'm sure the "reporter", if there is one, will likely pick and choose which posts to 'report' on, but at least the whole of all these threads are on here for proper review and not just cherry picked posts to support a one sided view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Well, at best, there will be articles written about islamophobia using your posts. It will draw attention to the kind of hate islamophobes perpetuate, alerting more people. At worst, the writer will uncover the name of the organization you work for that actually pays you to encourage people to hate Islam. Once its name is published, it will receive negative publicity. Donors will be careful to avoid association with it. Your employer will not be pleased to have this exposed.

So either way, your plan backfired.

Nope, no rage here. I'm defending my faith for Allah/God.

You're being ridiculous is what you are. Islam doesn't need defenders like you.

But the public needs you to show what a vile religion it is. Right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're fishing for information.

Usually people do that when they want to appear confident but are concerned.

Don't be. Your names will not be published. But the islamophobes organization will be, if learned.

No one studies Islam this much and posts anti Islam information almost 24/7 unless they are being paid to do so. This is DC and there are organizations that employ people to study and vilify Islam or other religious groups purely for political reasons. The organizations are covert. The last thing they want is to be exposed.

You are so wrong. I am assuming the other non-Muslim PPs are like me. We have studied Islam, Arab history, lived in the Arab world and we hate to see the misunderstandings about that world, to which we have attachments, generated in our native country. We believe that truth is a positive defense against this.

This requires looking at Islam objectively and explaining context that may work in some societies, but perhaps not in our own. We do not believe the cause is helped by Muslims who continue to foster misunderstanding about their religion, who get caught up in in myriad details of the religion and minutiae in its teachings while missing the big picture, and who insist no one can understand Islam unless they know Arabic and that no one is capable of opining on Islam or Islamic (or pre-Islamic!) history unless they are Muslim.

I believe that both Islam and the history are worthy of rigorous investigation by any knowledgeable person of objective, scholarly bent regardless of religion. This serves the interests of understanding Islam and the Arab and Muslim world. The stance taken by a number of Muslim PPs on this forum leads many to think instead you have something to hide.

If you wish to engage in the self study of Islam (because you do not trust the word of any Muslim), then begin with learning to read the Quran in the language it was revealed in and its true meaning. Also learn Islamic history. Anybody can opine on Islam by reading the translation. Doesn't make their opinion valuable or credible. Its just their opinion. Sort of like my picking up a Bible and casting my own opinions on the scripture. I would be better off to study the language the Bible was revealed in and read original scriptures. If I can not do that, I turn next to priests or biblical scholars. I do not refuse assuming all Christians are liars. I find a priest or biblical scholar who seems trustworthy and ask him to help me understand Christianity.

You can never learn the truth about Islam if you embark on a self study but refuse to learn the language the Quran was revealed in, simply because you can't even trust a Muslim. If you seek knowledge but begin your investigation with that level of hatred and mistrust, you will end up in the same place you began, still full of hate and mistrust and never learning anything new.

You do not seem to be on a truth seeking journey. You are plagued by personal experiences, perhaps negative experiences. But the mistake you make is confusing Islam with practice. The way Islam is practiced in some countries is not real Islam. It is not the Islam Prophet Muhammad preached. The condition and treatment of women deteriorated after the Prophet died and these countries have returned back to ignorant thinking with oppressive rules, similar to pre islamic times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
If you wish to engage in the self study of Islam (because you do not trust the word of any Muslim), then begin with learning to read the Quran in the language it was revealed in and its true meaning. Also learn Islamic history. Anybody can opine on Islam by reading the translation. Doesn't make their opinion valuable or credible. Its just their opinion. Sort of like my picking up a Bible and casting my own opinions on the scripture. I would be better off to study the language the Bible was revealed in and read original scriptures. If I can not do that, I turn next to priests or biblical scholars. I do not refuse assuming all Christians are liars. I find a priest or biblical scholar who seems trustworthy and ask him to help me understand Christianity.

Most Muslims don't read or speak the Quranic Arabic.

You are under the impression that unless someone agrees with your message completely, they must not have studied enough. How arrogant.

Anonymous wrote:
You can never learn the truth about Islam if you embark on a self study but refuse to learn the language the Quran was revealed in, simply because you can't even trust a Muslim. If you seek knowledge but begin your investigation with that level of hatred and mistrust, you will end up in the same place you began, still full of hate and mistrust and never learning anything new.

You do not seem to be on a truth seeking journey. You are plagued by personal experiences, perhaps negative experiences. But the mistake you make is confusing Islam with practice. The way Islam is practiced in some countries is not real Islam. It is not the Islam Prophet Muhammad preached. The condition and treatment of women deteriorated after the Prophet died and these countries have returned back to ignorant thinking with oppressive rules, similar to pre islamic times.

Most Muslims don't speak, read or understand the Quranic Arabic. Go pick on them.

Again, you seem to be under the impression that if someone doesn't agree with you, it's because they haven't studied enough. You are simply discounting the possibility that someone could have read, explored and studied all they wanted, and arrived at the conclusions that they did. You are assuming that every opinion different from yours is unlearned. Very arrogant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Well, at best, there will be articles written about islamophobia using your posts. It will draw attention to the kind of hate islamophobes perpetuate, alerting more people. At worst, the writer will uncover the name of the organization you work for that actually pays you to encourage people to hate Islam. Once its name is published, it will receive negative publicity. Donors will be careful to avoid association with it. Your employer will not be pleased to have this exposed.

So either way, your plan backfired.

Nope, no rage here. I'm defending my faith for Allah/God.

You're being ridiculous is what you are. Islam doesn't need defenders like you.

But the public needs you to show what a vile religion it is. Right.

Not with you in the same business, it doesn't. Not a single non-Muslim on this thread has left with a better impression of Islam because of you. You need to know this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
If you wish to engage in the self study of Islam (because you do not trust the word of any Muslim), then begin with learning to read the Quran in the language it was revealed in and its true meaning. Also learn Islamic history. Anybody can opine on Islam by reading the translation. Doesn't make their opinion valuable or credible. Its just their opinion.

So I guess you've just insulted the majority of Muslims who don't read and speak Arabic by saying they can't understand Islam if they only read the Quran in translation. The entire nations of Indonesia, Bosnia, Albania, Malaysia etc would be delighted to hear that.

Also, just for the sake of clarity: if you can read the Quran in the language it was revealed, it doesn't make your opinion any more valuable or credible. It's just your opinion. Abdulaziz Bin Baz could have been a backwards, tribal shill of Al-Saud. But one thing you can't say about him is that he read the Quran in translation. No ma'am, he most certainly did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're fishing for information.

Usually people do that when they want to appear confident but are concerned.

Don't be. Your names will not be published. But the islamophobes organization will be, if learned.

No one studies Islam this much and posts anti Islam information almost 24/7 unless they are being paid to do so. This is DC and there are organizations that employ people to study and vilify Islam or other religious groups purely for political reasons. The organizations are covert. The last thing they want is to be exposed.

You are so wrong. I am assuming the other non-Muslim PPs are like me. We have studied Islam, Arab history, lived in the Arab world and we hate to see the misunderstandings about that world, to which we have attachments, generated in our native country. We believe that truth is a positive defense against this.

This requires looking at Islam objectively and explaining context that may work in some societies, but perhaps not in our own. We do not believe the cause is helped by Muslims who continue to foster misunderstanding about their religion, who get caught up in in myriad details of the religion and minutiae in its teachings while missing the big picture, and who insist no one can understand Islam unless they know Arabic and that no one is capable of opining on Islam or Islamic (or pre-Islamic!) history unless they are Muslim.

I believe that both Islam and the history are worthy of rigorous investigation by any knowledgeable person of objective, scholarly bent regardless of religion. This serves the interests of understanding Islam and the Arab and Muslim world. The stance taken by a number of Muslim PPs on this forum leads many to think instead you have something to hide.

If you wish to engage in the self study of Islam (because you do not trust the word of any Muslim), then begin with learning to read the Quran in the language it was revealed in and its true meaning. Also learn Islamic history. Anybody can opine on Islam by reading the translation. Doesn't make their opinion valuable or credible. Its just their opinion. Sort of like my picking up a Bible and casting my own opinions on the scripture. I would be better off to study the language the Bible was revealed in and read original scriptures. If I can not do that, I turn next to priests or biblical scholars. I do not refuse assuming all Christians are liars. I find a priest or biblical scholar who seems trustworthy and ask him to help me understand Christianity.

You can never learn the truth about Islam if you embark on a self study but refuse to learn the language the Quran was revealed in, simply because you can't even trust a Muslim. If you seek knowledge but begin your investigation with that level of hatred and mistrust, you will end up in the same place you began, still full of hate and mistrust and never learning anything new.

You do not seem to be on a truth seeking journey. You are plagued by personal experiences, perhaps negative experiences. But the mistake you make is confusing Islam with practice. The way Islam is practiced in some countries is not real Islam. It is not the Islam Prophet Muhammad preached. The condition and treatment of women deteriorated after the Prophet died and these countries have returned back to ignorant thinking with oppressive rules, similar to pre islamic times.

I am the OP. I find it ironic you assumed I have not read the Quran in Arabic. You are the one who asserted that Sura Ash-Shurra provided for women to be included in consultation "because the plural was used." Another version of why it included women that you gave is that the surah is addressed to "believers," which included women.

I am the PP who went back to the Arabic of the sura and verified that 1) a plural is used for consultation in 42:38, but it is the masculine plural (for "those who") and, thus, didn't prove definitively that women were included and 2) the sura contains no reference to "believers" and even if it did it would have used the masculine plural, thus proving nothing about inclusion of women.

I then found a verse 42:11 in the sura that talks about mates for which the masculine plural is used. I further pointed out that other verses in the sura point to mates as being defined as those with whom one can make progeny. If the "you" in the sura were directed solely at males, the feminine plural of mates would have been used. However, since the masculine plural is used "you" must be directed at both men and women because males require female mates and women require male mates for children; masculine plural is used in Arabic where the plural is either all masculine or a combination of masculine and feminine.

You did not remark at all on this intervention, in which I PROVED YOUR ASSERTION through careful attention to the Arabic, which you yourself did not seem capable of--you simply asserted use of the plural indicates inclusion of women (untrue in Arabic, it may but not always--it depends on context) and said the sura addressed "believers' when that word is not used in the sura.

I assume you had no remark because it undermines your view that we are ignoramuses since we do not know Arabic and it does not fit in your world view that a non-Muslim could do a better job deconstructing a Quranic sura in Arabic than a Muslim. This is an excellent reason why I do not trust many Muslim scholars: they believe, like you, that because they are Muslim they can deconstruct the language of the Quran better than any non-Muslim. Sorry, being a Muslim who has learned some Arabic and maybe even can read the Quran does not automatically make you superior at deconstructing the language of the Quran or a better linguist.

Oh, and yes, I spent a lot of time studying pre-Islamic and Islamic history and have a fair bit of knowledge about tribal customs of the time, which are essential to actually knowing the culture context of the rise of Islam. Your remarks throughout this thread and others have never made reference to the important element of tribalism, which is crucial to understanding the milieu.

[Anonymous]

Wait, what? I thought we were finally done with this thread. And that all that was left to do was to wait for OP to post a link to the piece written by the "journalist" who puts together her religious study group's monthly bulletin.