Reply to The subtle micro aggressions of islamophobia

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]You're fishing for information.

Usually people do that when they want to appear confident but are concerned.

Don't be. Your names will not be published. But the islamophobes organization will be, if learned.

No one studies Islam this much and posts anti Islam information almost 24/7 unless they are being paid to do so. This is DC and there are organizations that employ people to study and vilify Islam or other religious groups purely for political reasons. The organizations are covert. The last thing they want is to be exposed.

[/quote]

You are so wrong.  I am assuming the other non-Muslim PPs are like me.  We have studied Islam, Arab history, lived in the Arab world and we hate to see the misunderstandings about that world, to which we have attachments, generated in our native country.  We believe that truth is a positive defense against this.

This requires looking at Islam objectively and explaining context that may work in some societies, but perhaps not in our own.  We do not believe the cause is helped by Muslims who continue to foster misunderstanding about their religion, who get caught up in in myriad details of the religion and minutiae in its teachings while missing the big picture, and who insist no one can understand Islam unless they know Arabic and that no one is capable of opining on Islam or Islamic (or pre-Islamic!) history unless they are Muslim.

I believe that both Islam and the history are worthy of rigorous investigation by any knowledgeable person of objective, scholarly bent regardless of religion.  This serves the interests of understanding Islam and the Arab and Muslim world.  The stance taken by a number of Muslim PPs on this forum leads many to think instead you have something to hide.[/quote]

If you wish to engage in the self study of Islam (because you do not trust the word of any Muslim), then begin with learning to read the Quran in the language it was revealed in and its true meaning. Also learn Islamic history.  Anybody can opine on Islam by reading the translation. Doesn't make their opinion valuable or credible. Its just their opinion. Sort of like my picking up a Bible and casting my own opinions on the scripture. I would be better off to study the language the Bible was revealed in and read original scriptures. If I can not do that, I turn next to priests or biblical scholars. I do not refuse assuming all Christians are liars. I find a priest or biblical scholar who seems trustworthy and ask him to help me understand Christianity.

You can never learn the truth about Islam if you embark on a self study but refuse to learn the language the Quran was revealed in, simply because you can't even trust a Muslim. If you seek knowledge but begin your investigation with that level of hatred and mistrust, you will end up in the same place you began, still full of hate and mistrust and never learning anything new.

You do not seem to be on a truth seeking journey. You are plagued by personal experiences, perhaps negative experiences. But the mistake you make is confusing Islam with practice. The way Islam is practiced in some countries is not real Islam. It is not the Islam Prophet Muhammad preached. The condition and treatment of women deteriorated after the Prophet died and these countries have returned back to ignorant thinking with oppressive rules, similar to pre islamic times.[/quote]

I am the OP.  I find it ironic you assumed I have not read the Quran in Arabic.  You are the one who asserted that Sura Ash-Shurra provided for women to be included in consultation "because the plural was used."  Another version of why it included women that you gave is that the surah is addressed to "believers," which included women.

I am the PP who went back to the Arabic of the sura and verified that 1) a plural is used for consultation in 42:38, but it is the masculine plural (for "those who") and, thus, didn't prove definitively that women were included and 2) the sura contains no reference to "believers" and even if it did it would have used the masculine plural, thus proving nothing about inclusion of women.

I then found a verse 42:11 in the sura that talks about mates for which the masculine plural is used.  I further pointed out that other  verses in the sura point to mates as being defined as those with whom one can make progeny.  If the "you" in the sura were directed solely at males, the feminine plural of mates would have been used.  However, since the masculine plural is used "you" must be directed at both men and women because males require female mates and women require male mates for children; masculine plural is used in Arabic where the plural is either all masculine or a combination of masculine and feminine.

You did not remark at all on this intervention, in which I PROVED YOUR ASSERTION through careful attention to the Arabic, which you yourself did not seem capable of--you simply asserted use of the plural indicates inclusion of women (untrue in Arabic, it may but not always--it depends on context) and said the sura addressed "believers' when that word is not used in the sura.

I assume you had no remark because it undermines your view that we are ignoramuses since we do not know Arabic and it does not fit in your world view that a non-Muslim could do a better job deconstructing a Quranic sura in Arabic than a Muslim.  This is an excellent reason why I do not trust many Muslim scholars:  they believe, like you, that because they are Muslim they can deconstruct the language of the Quran better than any non-Muslim.  Sorry, being a Muslim who has learned some Arabic and maybe even can read the Quran does not automatically make you superior at deconstructing the language of the Quran or a better linguist.

Oh, and yes, I spent a lot of time studying pre-Islamic and Islamic history and have a fair bit of knowledge about tribal customs of the time, which are essential to actually knowing the culture context of the rise of Islam.  Your remarks throughout this thread and others have never made reference to the important element of tribalism, which is crucial to understanding the milieu.     [/quote]

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