Tell me about Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. They know this. They feel terribly threatened by this because they fear Muslims will take over the US and want to convert it to a Sharia state. They fear it will give birth to grops like ISIS.

This is actually another myth. Pew Center wrote very eloquently about the challenges of compiling religious statistics, and the definition of "fastest growing" religion. Why don't you answer this:

What are the sources of information about conversions?

What organizations in the U.S., and for that matter, worldwide, maintain records on conversions? Plainly speaking, how do you know how many converted and when? If you call up any mosque anywhere and say, give me your conversion statistics from date X to day Y, what's going to happen?

The truth of the matter is that reliable statistics on conversion simply do not exist; and neither does information on how many stay within the fold for 5, 10, and 15 years. The rest is just...literature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.

Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.

You follow me??

You're doing the typical Muslim thing where they say the arrangements of their religion is perfect and whatever seems imperfect is really for your own good. Unequal rights to divorce for women? That's for your own good! Cannot travel without male companion? That's for your own good! Have to cede custody of children if you remarry? That's for your own good! Cannot marry without permission of legal guardian? It's for your own good!

So to address, just to humor you, the weak argument you make about divorce:

The system that is entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women did not fall from the sky. It was created and enshrined by that very same religion. The religion that does not see women as capable makers of their own decision and therefore wants to "protect them" from themselves.

Men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed on the wife during marriage? That's only if divorce is initiated by men. If initiated by a woman, it is very common for women to buy out their way out of the marriage by returning their wedding gift, for which ample scriptural proof is in fact available in the ahadith.

Furthermore, you know what else men are not required to do upon divorce? Share with the wife anything the couple accumulated during marriage. Theoretically, a scenario where a rich husband divorces his homemaker wife of 30 years and sends her off with three months' of maintenance, is perfectly legal Islamically. Doesn't seen fair? It didn't seem fair to the Indian courts either, which ushered in a famous case of Shah Bano, an elderly woman tossed out by her rich husband with nothing. When the court attempted to seek redress via alimony and property division similar to what is available to Hindu women, Muslims went out to demonstrate. India had to weasel out of this predicament by creating a special fund dedicated to maintenance of women who were cruelly - and yet irreproachably, as far as Islam is concerned - tossed out by their husbands.

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

please re-read the last paragraph. It is an excellent overview of why we are critical of Islam and and why Islam is fundamentally the problem.

you said - when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief - what does this mean? that you have the truth and everyone else covers it up? did God (or Mohammed) personally come to your house and deliver the truth? or are you reading something that another human being wrote and letting them be your god? this is nonsense for an adult person to say!

you said - ridiculing Islam - posters are not ridiculing. I am scared by the terrible violence that Islam has been imposing on any other religion it comes into contact with. And because of the US and Western Europe history of tolerance and political correctness, we will do nothing to stop it until it requires a huge cost to stop.

you said - us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch - yes we know this. Islam is about intolerance as practiced today. The leaders insist that the Koran is eternal, and must be simply accepted without question. In fact, for this group, the very act of questioning is blasphemous--a capital crime.


It's hard to recall that Islamic civilization was once far ahead of Western civilization. Early in Islamic history Arab conquests took them into captured libraries full of Greek philosophy, science, mathematics and culture and Islamic intellectual life expanded suddenly and exponentially. Many seminal works the West claims today as its own originally arrived as translations from Arabic. The numbers we use today, "Arabic" (actually Indian) numerals came in on a tide of Arabic words like algebra and algorithm. Arab civilization in the 10th seemed to have a bright future. Then, in the 11th century Islam reversed course. The pendulum swung so far away from the rationalism of Greek philosophy it never came back.

The linchpin of this change was over the alleged power of Allah. It became a theological fetish to ascribe Him flattering new dimensions of potency. Imaginative arguments were made inflate the Creator--always at the expense of the created.
- Omnipotence. Far more God-powers. Even to the point of dismissing all natural law, all cause & effect Every event from the molecular to the cosmic becomes Allah's will. (God is Great!...and getting Greater!)
- Onmiscience. He knows your fate and all future events. Failure & success, heaven or hell, happiness or misery--His choice, not yours. All entered into history by an Angel before you exist. (Divine determinism, Islamic style: only He is free.)
- Unknowability. You can know nothing about Him or His motives. To attempt to discover or postulate Allah's nature becomes blasphemy--a capital crime. All His commandments are beyond human logic: arbitrary and absolute. Obedience is the bedrock source of morality, all law, all behavior. No modifications allowed.

Right, your core belief that Islam is the problem is what is wrong with society and why this discussion is pointless, so I will end by saying this, " To you your religion, to me my religion". I don't have the energy to repeat the same things over and over. The very fact that you believe Muslims follow blindly their faith and are not allowed to question, seek the truth and gain knowledge shows that this discussion is sterile as you do not even understand the basics of Islam. The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. [i]The first verse of the Quran that was revealed was not " Pray" or "Believe" or "Fast, go to hajj", it was "Read! Read in the name of thy Lord who created;[He] created the human being from blood clot. Read in the name of thy Lord who taught by the pen: [He] taught the human being what he did not know." (96: 1-5). There are around 750 verses in the Quran that encourage us to think about the universe that surrounds us and all that has been created within it and placed at our disposal.The Prophet saw made seeking knowledge an obligation upon every Muslim, and he explained that the superiority of the one who has knowledge over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body. We are not supposed to close our eyes and live this life blindly following whatever flavor of the day. We are rather supposed to ponder, deliberate and choose a proper course of action for whatever undertaking we venture in. The Qur'an obligates believers to think and reflect, we don't just obey blindly, so to you your religion, to me mine!.

I think you summed it up in that one statement! These pp's truly think they understand Islam better than us, who actually practice Islam. It's no wonder they won't look up a few scholars or imams to call.

wahhabi - a misguided creed that fosters intolerance, promotes simplistic theology, and restricts Islam's capacity for adaption to diverse and shifting circumstances

how to tell a wahhabi - comments like the last paragraph of previous poster

you said - when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief - what does this mean? that you have the truth and everyone else covers it up? did God (or Mohammed) personally come to your house and deliver the truth? or are you reading something that another human being wrote and letting them be your god? this is nonsense for an adult person to say!

you said - ridiculing Islam - posters are not ridiculing. I am scared by the terrible violence that Islam has been imposing on any other religion it comes into contact with. And because of the US and Western Europe history of tolerance and political correctness, we will do nothing to stop it until it requires a huge cost to stop.

you said - us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch - yes we know this. Islam is about intolerance as practiced today. The leaders insist that the Koran is eternal, and must be simply accepted without question. In fact, for this group, the very act of questioning is blasphemous--a capital crime.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:
Converting people on the internet is not my forte. You do not have to like Islam, you do not have to be a Muslim, really it is a free world, you can believe in whatever you want, you can worship a rat if you want, it's your life! But if you spend countless hours on the internet sharing fallacies about Islam, quoting verses right and left out of context then obviously you are not very secured in whatever it is that you believe. You will never encounter me talking about Bhudhism, Atheism, Christianity, Judaism,...unless I have a question about what a Christian, jewish ect believes, why? Because I am very secured in what I believe and what islam is, so i have zero need of bashing someone else's religion even if I don't believe in it. I might be curious about their beliefs but you won't see me debate what Christians believe or how Bhuddists pray to their God.

So you are basically saying that non-Muslims have no right to talk about Islam unless in the context of asking you for the answers? A difference of opinion is not bashing; you seem to believe that the absence of rapture you have for your religion constitutes bashing. I don't think the poster was bashing Islam for anything, they simply interpret verses you cited differently. You are not the only one who understands context. Lots of conservative Muslim scholars have the same access to context than you do, and they came to very different conclusions as you. People aren't debating with you on what you believe - belief isn't arguable. They are debating on the meaning of things you present, and there is just as good of an argument to say you take things out of context as to say that Bin Baz did.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Right, your core belief that Islam is the problem is what is wrong with society and why this discussion is pointless, so I will end by saying this, " To you your religion, to me my religion". I don't have the energy to repeat the same things over and over. The very fact that you believe Muslims follow blindly their faith and are not allowed to question, seek the truth and gain knowledge shows that this discussion is sterile as you do not even understand the basics of Islam. The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. The first verse of the Quran that was revealed was not " Pray" or "Believe" or "Fast, go to hajj", it was "Read! Read in the name of thy Lord who created;[He] created the human being from blood clot. Read in the name of thy Lord who taught by the pen: [He] taught the human being what he did not know." (96: 1-5). There are around 750 verses in the Quran that encourage us to think about the universe that surrounds us and all that has been created within it and placed at our disposal.The Prophet saw made seeking knowledge an obligation upon every Muslim, and he explained that the superiority of the one who has knowledge over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body. We are not supposed to close our eyes and live this life blindly following whatever flavor of the day. We are rather supposed to ponder, deliberate and choose a proper course of action for whatever undertaking we venture in. The Qur'an obligates believers to think and reflect, we don't just obey blindly, so to you your religion, to me mine!.

That actually applies to Islamic knowledge, not any old knowledge.

It's disingenuous to say Islam encourages you to ponder, deliberate and reflect when it very clearly prescribes for you the outcome of this pondering. Any fatwa library you peruse makes heavy use of "we hear and obey, it's written this way so do it this way, Allah knows best." That's hardly encouraging to think for yourself.

Islam is not unique in this, every religion tells you what to think and what to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think Islam is divinely inspired but then I don't think any religion is. I want you to know something. You behave like every single unskilled dawwa-giver I met, and I met a lot of them - including my numerous Saudi in-laws. They all go on and on about how fabulous Islam is; when I point out something factual that doesn't seem appealing to me, they come up with all kinds of reasons why black is white and white is black, and then they ask me to agree that Islam is fabulous. When I continue saying that it doesn't seem fabulous to me, they all say, No! You see in your heart that it's fabulous, you just DELIBERATELY don't want to admit it.

I'm like why? Why would I hesitate to admit it? I've told you about all the reasons it doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to suddenly decide that these reasons aren't important any more. I'm not deliberately being anything. You've failed to make a good argument. That's fine; no religion has ever made a good argument to me. But to insist that whoever doesn't see the beauty of Islam MUST be refusing deliberately is just disrespectful. I have no problem with you believing what you believe. But stop trying to make me admit it makes sense or is fabulous. It doesn't. And it isn't, not to me. And that's completely sincere.

Very well put, PP. I'm the poster who yesterday was challenging Muslima's so-called "logic" as disengenuous as best, and outright deceptive at worst. When I say outright deceptive, I include in this description Muslima's half-truths ("Islam offers various rights to women") as well as outrights lies ("Islam offers asylum to captives").

My only goal is to get the complete facts out there. Then DCUM's readers can decide for themselves whether they see "beauty" in the Islamic system. DCUM readers can decide for themselves whether forcing unconsensual sex on female captives is "beautiful," or not. But DCUM's readers can't make decisions based on full information if Muslima's and the other Muslim poster's statements, such as "Islam offers captives asylum," are left to stand unchallenged.

What I find very frustrating is that when we challenge this supposed "logic" and "beauty," as carefully and selectively presented by Muslima and the other poster, Muslima and the other poster accuse us of "hating Islam" and of being "afraid" to accept the beauty of Islam. I hope DCUM readers can see that this as yet another example of a logical fallacy, one of many logical errors, in their arguments. Yes, it's true that I don't see the "beauty" of many of these religious rules, once they are fully explained. But this hzs nothing to do with "being afraid" to accept some selectively presented "logic." That's just plain silly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Converting people on the internet is not my forte. You do not have to like Islam, you do not have to be a Muslim, really it is a free world, you can believe in whatever you want, you can worship a rat if you want, it's your life! But if you spend countless hours on the internet sharing fallacies about Islam, quoting verses right and left out of context then obviously you are not very secured in whatever it is that you believe. You will never encounter me talking about Bhudhism, Atheism, Christianity, Judaism,...unless I have a question about what a Christian, jewish ect believes, why? Because I am very secured in what I believe and what islam is, so i have zero need of bashing someone else's religion even if I don't believe in it. I might be curious about their beliefs but you won't see me debate what Christians believe or how Bhuddists pray to their God.

So you are basically saying that non-Muslims have no right to talk about Islam unless in the context of asking you for the answers? A difference of opinion is not bashing; you seem to believe that the absence of rapture you have for your religion constitutes bashing. I don't think the poster was bashing Islam for anything, they simply interpret verses you cited differently. You are not the only one who understands context. Lots of conservative Muslim scholars have the same access to context than you do, and they came to very different conclusions as you. People aren't debating with you on what you believe - belief isn't arguable. They are debating on the meaning of things you present, and there is just as good of an argument to say you take things out of context as to say that Bin Baz did.

I'm hearing the same thing: Muslima demands that we accept her very carefully curated presentation of Islam. Any effort to expand factually on her rose-colored presentation is, in her view, a "lie" driven by "fear."

That's incredible, in the literal sense of the word. How can presenting actual *facts* ever be a "lie"? You're simply outraged that somebody would clarify that "asylum" means "rape" and that "divorce rights for women" means "a husband can still divorce his wife by repeating a single word three times, but now women can go before a judge." I could go on with other examples of your discourse, as I'm sure you're aware.

I find your outrage, that you stoop to calling simple and undisputed facts "lies" and "Islamaphobia," to be very revealing of your own defensiveness.

I'm also hearing at least one Muslim poster calling Mary a rock-star slut for the immaculate conception, and this despite Muslima arguing that Muslims are supposed to accept it (I can go back for the date and time of Muslima's post if you want). Marriage at age 9 was the rule in many Muslim areas for centuries, and you still hear about extreme radicals wanting to return to it as some sort of ideal. Sorry, but you guys don't have a leg to stand on. PP is right, immaculate conception didn't involve choice but Muhammed certainly had a choice in marrying a 9-year-old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Converting people on the internet is not my forte. You do not have to like Islam, you do not have to be a Muslim, really it is a free world, you can believe in whatever you want, you can worship a rat if you want, it's your life! But if you spend countless hours on the internet sharing fallacies about Islam, quoting verses right and left out of context then obviously you are not very secured in whatever it is that you believe. You will never encounter me talking about Bhudhism, Atheism, Christianity, Judaism,...unless I have a question about what a Christian, jewish ect believes, why? Because I am very secured in what I believe and what islam is, so i have zero need of bashing someone else's religion even if I don't believe in it. I might be curious about their beliefs but you won't see me debate what Christians believe or how Bhuddists pray to their God.

So you are basically saying that non-Muslims have no right to talk about Islam unless in the context of asking you for the answers? A difference of opinion is not bashing; you seem to believe that the absence of rapture you have for your religion constitutes bashing. I don't think the poster was bashing Islam for anything, they simply interpret verses you cited differently. You are not the only one who understands context. Lots of conservative Muslim scholars have the same access to context than you do, and they came to very different conclusions as you. People aren't debating with you on what you believe - belief isn't arguable. They are debating on the meaning of things you present, and there is just as good of an argument to say you take things out of context as to say that Bin Baz did.

I'm hearing the same thing: Muslima demands that we accept her very carefully curated presentation of Islam. Any effort to expand factually on her rose-colored presentation is, in her view, a "lie" driven by "fear."

That's incredible, in the literal sense of the word. How can presenting actual *facts* ever be a "lie"? You're simply outraged that somebody would clarify that "asylum" means "rape" and that "divorce rights for women" means "a husband can still divorce his wife by repeating a single word three times, but now women can go before a judge." I could go on with other examples of your discourse, as I'm sure you're aware.

I find your outrage, that you stoop to calling simple and undisputed facts "lies" and "Islamaphobia," to be very revealing of your own defensiveness.

I'm also hearing at least one Muslim poster calling Mary a rock-star slut for the immaculate conception, and this despite Muslima arguing that Muslims are supposed to accept it (I can go back for the date and time of Muslima's post if you want). Marriage at age 9 was the rule in many Muslim areas for centuries, and you still hear about extreme radicals wanting to return to it as some sort of ideal. Sorry, but you guys don't have a leg to stand on. PP is right, immaculate conception didn't involve choice but Muhammed certainly had a choice in marrying a 9-year-old.

I'm the PP with Saudi inlaws, and to be honest, the Aisha story leaves me cold. So she was a little younger than you prefer. Whatever. There is no evidence that she was forced to marry or to continue to be married. She personally and her father, Mr. Abu Bakr, reaped substantial social benefits from the marriage. By all accounts, Muhammad and Aisha were quite fond of each other. This is no different from political marriages of European royalty. No big deal.

The problem, of course, arises when some Muslim countries (not all but some) refuse to recognize minimum age for marriage pointing to Aisha's example since Muhammad's life is supposed to be a model for all Muslims and it takes a colossal amount of guts to say "the prophet did this but I think this is unacceptable in our times so I am not going to support that." Within the context of traditional Muslim discourse, it is next to impossible to say clearly that things X, Y and Z, while clearly outlined in the Quran and hadith, are no longer applicable and should be abolished. This is why, for instance, on the subject of slavery, you rarely (sometimes you do but rarely) see a Muslim scholar come out and say, slavery is banned, khalas, stop talking about it. Instead, it's pages and pages on how Muslim slavery is different and wonderful and fabulous and hardly ever exists. This is not because Muslims innately approve of slavery. This is because in the world of Muslim scholarship, it is very difficult to officially abandon a practice outlined in the scripture. It's the whole burden of "today I perfected your religion for you."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Very well put, PP. I'm the poster who yesterday was challenging Muslima's so-called "logic" as disengenuous as best, and outright deceptive at worst. When I say outright deceptive, I include in this description Muslima's half-truths ("Islam offers various rights to women") as well as outrights lies ("Islam offers asylum to captives").

My only goal is to get the complete facts out there. Then DCUM's readers can decide for themselves whether they see "beauty" in the Islamic system. DCUM readers can decide for themselves whether forcing unconsensual sex on female captives is "beautiful," or not. But DCUM's readers can't make decisions based on full information if Muslima's and the other Muslim poster's statements, such as "Islam offers captives asylum," are left to stand unchallenged.

What I find very frustrating is that when we challenge this supposed "logic" and "beauty," as carefully and selectively presented by Muslima and the other poster, Muslima and the other poster accuse us of "hating Islam" and of being "afraid" to accept the beauty of Islam. I hope DCUM readers can see that this as yet another example of a logical fallacy, one of many logical errors, in their arguments. Yes, it's true that I don't see the "beauty" of many of these religious rules, once they are fully explained. But this hzs nothing to do with "being afraid" to accept some selectively presented "logic." That's just plain silly.

Don't find it frustrating. This is a basic concept of Muslim religious discourse. The kaffir - ka, fa, ra, - is "the one who covers", and also" the ungrateful one". What that means is that after Muslims "revealed the beauty of Islam for you", and you happen to disagree, then you are deliberately covering the truth (of Islam) to yourself, and are ungrateful. This is the basic meaning of kufr. There is no allowance in the Muslim scholarship that someone can be sincerely a non-Muslim. Because if you were honest, you would embrace Islam. If you don't, you are dishonest (partial waivers available to Christians and Jews.) She's not inventing anything. It's a common libretto.

The thing is, I'm not anti-Islam. I'm Islam-neutral. Islam gives people and women some rights, and takes away others. It allows for certain liberties and disallows for others. It is sometimes tolerant and sometimes cruel. It's not different from any other philosophy. If you want to find verses embracing religious tolerance in Islamic scriptures, you can. If you want to find verses embracing intolerance, you also can.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, PP. The explanation of kaffirs is particularly helpful for understand the nature of debate on this thread, which is very frustrating to a non-believer like me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

I'm as Islam neutral as it comes. I am not interested n moving your faith an inch or a foot; what do I care about what an internet stranger believes?

I don't think Islam is divinely inspired but then I don't think any religion is. I want you to know something. You behave like every single unskilled dawwa-giver I met, and I met a lot of them - including my numerous Saudi in-laws. They all go on and on about how fabulous Islam is; when I point out something factual that doesn't seem appealing to me, they come up with all kinds of reasons why black is white and white is black, and then they ask me to agree that Islam is fabulous. When I continue saying that it doesn't seem fabulous to me, they all say, No! You see in your heart that it's fabulous, you just DELIBERATELY don't want to admit it.

I'm like why? Why would I hesitate to admit it? I've told you about all the reasons it doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to suddenly decide that these reasons aren't important any more. I'm not deliberately being anything. You've failed to make a good argument. That's fine; no religion has ever made a good argument to me. But to insist that whoever doesn't see the beauty of Islam MUST be refusing deliberately is just disrespectful. I have no problem with you believing what you believe. But stop trying to make me admit it makes sense or is fabulous. It doesn't. And it isn't, not to me. And that's completely sincere.

So where did u get the idea we Muslims want or need you to think Islam is fabulous? Just because your in laws do? There are plenty of conversions to Islam and I hope to God none of them are under any compulsion.

Islam is a great religion regardless of what anyone thinks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. They know this. They feel terribly threatened by this because they fear Muslims will take over the US and want to convert it to a Sharia state. They fear it will give birth to grops like ISIS.

This is actually another myth. Pew Center wrote very eloquently about the challenges of compiling religious statistics, and the definition of "fastest growing" religion. Why don't you answer this:

What are the sources of information about conversions?

What organizations in the U.S., and for that matter, worldwide, maintain records on conversions? Plainly speaking, how do you know how many converted and when? If you call up any mosque anywhere and say, give me your conversion statistics from date X to day Y, what's going to happen?

The truth of the matter is that reliable statistics on conversion simply do not exist; and neither does information on how many stay within the fold for 5, 10, and 15 years. The rest is just...literature.

Since wikipedia seems to be the educational source here for some of you folks…the CIA factbook is the resource for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

And here it shows that Islam grew by 109% in a relatively short span of time:
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think Islam is divinely inspired but then I don't think any religion is. I want you to know something. You behave like every single unskilled dawwa-giver I met, and I met a lot of them - including my numerous Saudi in-laws. They all go on and on about how fabulous Islam is; when I point out something factual that doesn't seem appealing to me, they come up with all kinds of reasons why black is white and white is black, and then they ask me to agree that Islam is fabulous. When I continue saying that it doesn't seem fabulous to me, they all say, No! You see in your heart that it's fabulous, you just DELIBERATELY don't want to admit it.

I'm like why? Why would I hesitate to admit it? I've told you about all the reasons it doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to suddenly decide that these reasons aren't important any more. I'm not deliberately being anything. You've failed to make a good argument. That's fine; no religion has ever made a good argument to me. But to insist that whoever doesn't see the beauty of Islam MUST be refusing deliberately is just disrespectful. I have no problem with you believing what you believe. But stop trying to make me admit it makes sense or is fabulous. It doesn't. And it isn't, not to me. And that's completely sincere.

Very well put, PP. I'm the poster who yesterday was challenging Muslima's so-called "logic" as disengenuous as best, and outright deceptive at worst. When I say outright deceptive, I include in this description Muslima's half-truths ("Islam offers various rights to women") as well as outrights lies ("Islam offers asylum to captives").

My only goal is to get the complete facts out there. Then DCUM's readers can decide for themselves whether they see "beauty" in the Islamic system. DCUM readers can decide for themselves whether forcing unconsensual sex on female captives is "beautiful," or not. But DCUM's readers can't make decisions based on full information if Muslima's and the other Muslim poster's statements, such as "Islam offers captives asylum," are left to stand unchallenged.

What I find very frustrating is that when we challenge this supposed "logic" and "beauty," as carefully and selectively presented by Muslima and the other poster, Muslima and the other poster accuse us of "hating Islam" and of being "afraid" to accept the beauty of Islam. I hope DCUM readers can see that this as yet another example of a logical fallacy, one of many logical errors, in their arguments. Yes, it's true that I don't see the "beauty" of many of these religious rules, once they are fully explained. But this hzs nothing to do with "being afraid" to accept some selectively presented "logic." That's just plain silly.

Is UNconsensual a word??? lol Listen if your goal or other people's goal was simply to get the "facts" out there about Islam, you or others would never have called Muhammad a pedophile and you would not resort to sarcasm ("beauty" of Islam).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. They know this. They feel terribly threatened by this because they fear Muslims will take over the US and want to convert it to a Sharia state. They fear it will give birth to grops like ISIS.

This is actually another myth. Pew Center wrote very eloquently about the challenges of compiling religious statistics, and the definition of "fastest growing" religion. Why don't you answer this:

What are the sources of information about conversions?

What organizations in the U.S., and for that matter, worldwide, maintain records on conversions? Plainly speaking, how do you know how many converted and when? If you call up any mosque anywhere and say, give me your conversion statistics from date X to day Y, what's going to happen?

The truth of the matter is that reliable statistics on conversion simply do not exist; and neither does information on how many stay within the fold for 5, 10, and 15 years. The rest is just...literature.

This doesn't say anything about the conversions.

Since wikipedia seems to be the educational source here for some of you folks…the CIA factbook is the resource for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

And here it shows that Islam grew by 109% in a relatively short span of time:
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. They know this. They feel terribly threatened by this because they fear Muslims will take over the US and want to convert it to a Sharia state. They fear it will give birth to grops like ISIS.

This is actually another myth. Pew Center wrote very eloquently about the challenges of compiling religious statistics, and the definition of "fastest growing" religion. Why don't you answer this:

What are the sources of information about conversions?

What organizations in the U.S., and for that matter, worldwide, maintain records on conversions? Plainly speaking, how do you know how many converted and when? If you call up any mosque anywhere and say, give me your conversion statistics from date X to day Y, what's going to happen?

The truth of the matter is that reliable statistics on conversion simply do not exist; and neither does information on how many stay within the fold for 5, 10, and 15 years. The rest is just...literature.

Since wikipedia seems to be the educational source here for some of you folks…the CIA factbook is the resource for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

And here it shows that Islam grew by 109% in a relatively short span of time:
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

This doesn't say anything about the conversions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
So where did u get the idea we Muslims want or need you to think Islam is fabulous? Just because your in laws do? There are plenty of conversions to Islam and I hope to God none of them are under any compulsion.

Islam is a great religion regardless of what anyone thinks.

I don't think Muslims per se want or need me to think Islam is fabulous. Islam is fine without me, and I am fine without Islam. What I find objectionable is the idea that if I don't find Islam fabulous, I must be doing it out of stubbornness, or deliberate refusal to see the truth, rather than my honest opinion that Islam is not fabulous.