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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]

Very well put, PP. I'm the poster who yesterday was challenging Muslima's so-called "logic" as disengenuous as best, and outright deceptive at worst. When I say outright deceptive, I include in this description Muslima's half-truths ("Islam offers various rights to women") as well as outrights lies ("Islam offers asylum to captives").

My only goal is to get the complete facts out there. Then DCUM's readers can decide for themselves whether they see "beauty" in the Islamic system. DCUM readers can decide for themselves whether forcing unconsensual sex on female captives is "beautiful," or not. But DCUM's readers can't make decisions based on full information if Muslima's and the other Muslim poster's statements, such as "Islam offers captives asylum," are left to stand unchallenged.

[b]What I find very frustrating is that when we challenge this supposed "logic" and "beauty," as carefully and selectively presented by Muslima and the other poster, Muslima and the other poster accuse us of "hating Islam" and of being "afraid" to accept the beauty of Islam.[/b] I hope DCUM readers can see that this as yet another example of a logical fallacy, one of many logical errors, in their arguments. Yes, it's true that I don't see the "beauty" of many of these religious rules, once they are fully explained. But this hzs nothing to do with "being afraid" to accept some selectively presented "logic." That's just plain silly.[/quote]

Don't find it frustrating. This is a basic concept of Muslim religious discourse.   The kaffir - ka, fa, ra, - is "the one who covers", and also" the ungrateful one". What that means is that after Muslims "revealed the beauty of Islam for you", and you happen to disagree, then you are deliberately covering the truth (of Islam) to yourself, and are ungrateful.  This is the basic meaning of kufr.  There is no allowance in the Muslim scholarship that someone can be sincerely a non-Muslim.  Because if you were honest, you would embrace Islam.  If you don't, you are dishonest (partial waivers available to Christians and Jews.)   She's not inventing anything.  It's a common libretto.

The thing is, I'm not anti-Islam.  I'm Islam-neutral.  Islam gives people and women some rights, and takes away others.  It allows for certain liberties and disallows for others.  It is sometimes tolerant and sometimes cruel.  It's not different from any other philosophy.   If you want to find verses embracing religious tolerance in Islamic scriptures, you can. If you want to find verses embracing intolerance, you also can.  [/quote]

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