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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Muslima]
Converting people on the internet is not my forte. You do not have to like Islam, you do not have to be a Muslim, really it is a free world, you can believe in whatever you want, you can worship a rat if you want, it's your life! But if you spend countless hours on the internet sharing fallacies about Islam, quoting verses right and left out of context then obviously you are not very secured in whatever it is that you believe. You will never encounter me talking about Bhudhism, Atheism, Christianity, Judaism,...unless I have a question about what a Christian, jewish ect believes, why? Because I am very secured in what I believe and what islam is, so i have zero need of bashing someone else's religion even if I don't believe in it. I might be curious about their beliefs but you won't see me debate what Christians believe or how Bhuddists pray to their God.[/quote]
So you are basically saying that non-Muslims have no right to talk about Islam unless in the context of asking you for the answers?  A difference of opinion is not bashing; you seem to believe that the absence of rapture you have for your religion constitutes bashing.  I don't think the poster was bashing Islam for anything, they simply interpret verses you cited differently.  You are not the only one who understands context.  Lots of conservative Muslim scholars have the same access to context than you do, and they came to very different conclusions as you.  People aren't debating with you on what you believe - belief isn't arguable.  They are debating on the meaning of things you present, and there is just as good of an argument to say you take things out of context as to say that Bin Baz did. [/quote]

I'm hearing the same thing: Muslima demands that we accept her very carefully curated presentation of Islam. Any effort to expand factually on her rose-colored presentation is, in her view, a "lie" driven by "fear."

That's incredible, in the literal sense of the word. How can presenting actual *facts* ever be a "lie"? You're simply outraged that somebody would clarify that "asylum" means "rape" and that "divorce rights for women" means "a husband can still divorce his wife by repeating a single word three times, but now women can go before a judge." I could go on with other examples of your discourse, as I'm sure you're aware.

I find your outrage, that you stoop to calling [b]simple and undisputed facts [/b] "lies" and "Islamaphobia," to be very revealing of your own defensiveness.

I'm also hearing at least one Muslim poster calling Mary a rock-star slut for the immaculate conception, and this despite Muslima arguing that Muslims are supposed to accept it (I can go back for the date and time of Muslima's post if you want). Marriage at age 9 was the rule in many Muslim areas for centuries, and you still hear about extreme radicals wanting to return to it as some sort of ideal. Sorry, but you guys don't have a leg to stand on. PP is right, immaculate conception didn't involve choice but Muhammed certainly had a choice in marrying a 9-year-old. [/quote]
I'm the PP with Saudi inlaws, and to be honest, the Aisha story leaves me cold.  So she was a little younger than you prefer.  Whatever.  There is no evidence that she was forced to marry or to continue to be married. She personally and her father, Mr. Abu Bakr, reaped substantial social benefits from the marriage.  By all accounts, Muhammad and Aisha were quite fond of each other.  This is no different from political marriages of European royalty. No big deal.

The problem, of course, arises when some Muslim countries (not all but some) refuse to recognize minimum age for marriage pointing to Aisha's example since Muhammad's life is supposed to be a model for all Muslims and it takes a colossal amount of guts to say "the prophet did this but I think this is unacceptable in our times so I am not going to support that."  Within the context of traditional Muslim discourse, it is next to impossible to say clearly that things X, Y and Z, while clearly outlined in the Quran and hadith, are no longer applicable and should be abolished.  This is why, for instance, on the subject of slavery, you rarely (sometimes you do but rarely) see a Muslim scholar come out and say, slavery is banned, khalas, stop talking about it. Instead, it's pages and pages on how Muslim slavery is different and wonderful and fabulous and hardly ever exists.  This is not because Muslims innately approve of slavery.  This is because in the world of Muslim scholarship, it is very difficult to officially abandon a practice outlined in the scripture.   It's the whole burden of "today I perfected your religion for you."

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