Tell me about Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And there you have it folks! We have one person who thought she was criticizing Muslims by pointing out most of our converts were Africans and now we have another poster who tells Muslima to go back to her country.

So the whole time we thought they were legitimately seeking info, but now they are exposed as nothing but a handful of RACIST ISLAMOPHOBES.

You're so silly. A PP provided stats (more than anything you've done!) to show that 60% of American converts are AAs. Since when does using actual statistics make someone a racist?

And you keep boasting about rich Muslim immigrants and white Muslim converts. Does that make you a racist?

[Anonymous]

I find it absolutely abominable that you actually had the audacity to criticize Islam by essentially saying that the best that Islam can do is acquire African Americans and people from ghettos. I was just thinking about what you wrote and could not get it out of my mind. I realized the gravity of what you wrote. You may as well as have said "You Muslims may be increasing in number, but the best you guys can do is get the poor folks or n*****." You basically got busted, couldn't edit or delete what you wrote, and so you began to backpedal because you had to save face. And then you immediately accuse Muslims of caring very much about the color of people's skin. It's pretty clear YOU do. We do not. Our prophet was middle eastern so he may have been dark complected himself. Many, if not most, Muslims are olive complected or dark complected. Yes, the American Muslim face is changing to blend in more with American society, but generally speaking, most Muslims are not blonde and blue eyed or caucasian looking. So why on earth would we discriminate against people who look like us? That just makes no sense at all. In fact, I think when you realized your mistake in posting something so obviously racist, you tried to hurl the racism accusation back at Muslims to deflect from your mistake. Not cool at all.

First of all, your emotions about the facts I posted aren't really a part of the argument. I don't see how and where I got busted or tried to backpedal. I stand behind what I wrote. The idea that it reflects poorly on Islam is all your own interpretation - why is that my problem? The rise (and fall) of Salafi Islam in the ghettos and prisons of Chicago, Philadelphia and Washington is a part of your religion's history in this country, a well-documented part that lots of and lots of people - from that very community - wrote and wept about. Not the only part, but a part nevertheless. Study it. Own it.

Of course there are other scholars in other countries but why am I or Muslims in the US obligated to follow or believe their interpretation of the Quran? Why would I choose a scholar to follow that hails from any other country than the one I was raised and reside here? That makes no sense to me. In Catholicism the Pope is the religious leader of the world. In Islam, there is no world leader of our religion. Each person is expected to study the Quran well and learn on his or her own. Other Muslim countries may follow Sharia law but the Sharia may differ from Muslim country to Muslim country. Moreover, simply because some people interpret Islam much more harshly it does not follow that therefore Islam must indeed be unreasonable. That would be a naive conclusion. Scholars are not perfect, they make mistakes. And remember that Islamic scholars here in the US are not restrained by the old cultural traditions and patriarchal mindset of other countries. As such, the kind of Islam they preach is TRUE Islam, free of any cultural influences. In fact, Islamic scholars from other countries might have a very hard time escaping their cultural influences because if they did, their followers might denounce them.
You are free to follow whoever you like. It's pick your sheikh. What you aren't free to do is insist that scholars you don't choose to follow and people who DO decide to follow them don't understand Islam, have loophooles in their understanding, cherry-pick their quotes or are hell-bent to hate Islam. Bin Baz is just as Muslim as Hamza Yusuf. He is (was) as much of a scholar, possibly more, than Yusuf. Who are you to say one is learned and the other isn't?

Islamic scholars in the US may not be restrained by the patriarchal mindset but they have their own restrictions, have no doubt about that. Every culture poses its own burdens. Hamza Yusuf is influenced by what is cool in America just as much as Bin Baz was influenced by what was cool in America. They both serve what their clients eat up.

[Anonymous]

as much as Bin Baz was influenced by what was cool in SAUDI ARABIA, mistyped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I said many pages ago that I do NOT base my answers or defense of Islam on the Sharia, as Sharia is MAN MADE law. I base my answers on primarily on the Quran. The Sharia is flawed and does not accurate reflect what God intended. You can not google research Islam or read one or two books to understand it completely. There are huge loopholes in your understanding of the rationale of Islam. You must speak with a few scholars or reputable imams to clarify your questions. Here is one article that provides a couple of passages which explain under what terms more than one wife is permitted: http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/polygamy_in_quran_(P1411).html It may NOT be permitted on a whim. It is an extremely serious decision with very narrow boundaries.

I see. You are advancing the argument that there is indeed a limitation on polygamy that consists of terms under which marrying more than one is permissible. Your claim rests on your rejection of thousands of years of legal tradition and Muslim practice. Clearly, they were looking for you, o the enlightened one, to come out of DCUM and set them straight.

But never mind. You wanted me to consult a reputable scholar. Luckily, there's lots to pick from. Do you mind if I don't go to Mr. Yusuf but pick some other of this breathren? I feel, personally, like you provided him with enough air time here. Let's have a little show and tell.

Up first is Mr. Yusuf Qaradawi, one of the most famous Muslim jurists in the Arab world, and the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood-linked European Council for Fatwa and Research. Who is Mr. Qaradawi? Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Arabic: ???? ???????? Y?suf al-Qara??w??; or Yusuf al-Qardawi; born 9 September 1926) is an Egyptian Islamic theologian, and chairman of the International Union of Muslim Scholars.[1] He is best known for his programme, al-Shar??a wa al-?ay?h ("Shariah and Life"), broadcast on Al Jazeera, which has an estimated audience of 60 million worldwide.[2][3] He is also well known for IslamOnline, a popular website he helped found in 1997 and for which he now serves as chief religious scholar.[4]

Al-Qaradawi has published more than 120 books,[3] including The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam and Islam: The Future Civilization. He has also received eight international prizes for his contributions to Islamic scholarship,[5] and is considered one of the most influential such scholars living today.[2][6][7] Al-Qaradawi has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood,[8] an Egyptian political organization, but twice (in 1976 and 2004) turned down offers for the official role in the organization.[2][9]

As of 2004, al-Qaradawi was a trustee of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies.[13] He also served as a consultant scholar for an epic movie in English on Muhammad, and a 30-part series on the second caliph 'Umar b. al-Kha???b.[14][15][16]

http://www.translatingjihad.com/2011/03/fatwa-polygamy-can-solve-problem-for.html

Decision of the Council: Before Islam, people would marry whichever women they wished without any restrictions or conditions. Then Islam came, and placed limits and conditions on this polygamy. As for the limit, it made the maximum number four, not to be increased under any circumstances: “Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four” [Qur’an 4:3]. When an educated man who had ten wives converted to Islam, the Prophet (peace be upon him) commanded him to choose four of them, and divorce the rest.

As for the condition, it is expressed in the confidence a man has in himself to be able to deal justly. Otherwise, he is forbidden from taking another wife: “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one” [Qur’an 4:3]. This is in addition to the availability of the other conditions (required) for any marriage, such as the ability to cover (the wife’s) expenses and to protect her.

Therefore Islam has allowed this, because it is a practical religion. It does not float around in dreamy ideals, and leave the problems of life without a predetermined solution. A second marriage could solve a problem for a man whose wife cannot bear him children. Or for a man whose wife has a prolonged menstrual cycle, and his lust becomes too great. Or for a man whose wife becomes sick, and he remains with her and does not want to divorce her, and so on.

It could also solve a problem for the widow whose husband has died, and who does not desire to marry a young man who has no wife. The same goes for a young divorced woman, especially if she has one or more children.

It could even solve a problem for the whole of society, which comes when the number of righteous women becomes greater than the number of men who are able to marry. This is an ever-present problem, which is aggravated after wars and such.

For what will we do with the surplus women? There are three choices:

1. They can spend their entire lives denied the life of a wife and mother. This is injustice against them.

2. They can satisfy their natural instincts outside the boundaries of religion and morals. This is perdition for them.

3. They can accept marriage with a married man who is able to pay their expenses and protect them, and is confident of his ability to deal justly. This is the appropriate solution.

Now the misuse of these plural wives or of this right to polygamy--for how often rights are misused, or abused! Yet this does not result in their abrogation. How often the first marriage itself is misused! Do we therefore cancel (this right)? How often freedom is misused! Do we therefore cancel this (right)? Elections are misused--do we cancel this (right)? And authority...how often this is misused! Do we cancel this right, and let life descend into anarchy? Therefore rather than call for the cancelling of the right, let us put conditions on its use, and punish he who misuses it, as much as we are able.

What do we see here? What conditions? No more than four, and treating all justly. But never mind. Maybe Qaradawi learned his Islam from Sheikh Google. Or maybe he cherrypicks his quotes. Maybe he doesn't understand the historical context in which the Quranic verses were revealed, despite his multiple degrees and years of work? Perhaps there are huge loopholes in his understanding of traditional Islam? Poor, poor Yusuf. Poor misguided chap. If only he had you to set you straight.

Contestant #2 is Mr. Abdulaziz Bin Baz, formerly of the "earth is flat" club, but to be fair, he did admit he was wrong about that. What do we know about Mr. Bin Baz? A Saudi Arabian Islamic scholar and a leading proponent of the Salafi (also known as Wahhabism) form of Islam. He was the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia from 1993 until his death in 1999. His "immense religious erudition and his reputation for intransigence" gave him such "prestige" among the pious population of Saudi Arabia, that his fatwas endorsing government policy greatly strengthened the Saudi Arabian government, and his death left the government without a comparable figure to "fill" his "shoes".[3] Among his honors are In 1961 he was appointed Vice President, and later President, of the Islamic University of Madinah.
In 1970 he became the Chancellor of the University upon the death of Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem Aal ash-Shaykh and he remained chancellor until 1975.
In 1975 a royal decree named him Chairman of the Department of Scientific Research and Ifta with the rank of Minister.
In 1992 he was appointed Grand Mufti of the Saudi Arabia and Head of the Council of Senior Scholars and was granted presidency of the administration for scientific research and legal rulings.
President of the Permanent Committee for Research and Fatawa.
President and member of the Constituent Assembly of the Muslim World League.[1][2]
President of the Higher World League Council.
President of the International Islamic Fiqh Academy, Jeddah.
Member of the Higher Council of the Islamic University of Medina.
Member of the Higher Committee for Islaamic Da'wah in Saudi Arabia.

What does this beacon of Islamic knowledge have to say about polygamy?

http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=579
Concerning Polygyny/ Polygamy.
Question:

Some people say marrying more than one wife is not allowed unless a person has an orphan under his care and he fears that he will not do justice between them. Then he may marry their mother or one of her daughters. For evidence they quote, '' And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry women of your choice, two, three or four.” (al-Nisa:3)
Answer:

This statement is false. The meaning of the verse is that if a person has under his care an orphan and he fears that he will not give her proper amount of dower, then he should marry other women, for there are many women and Allah will not make things difficult for him.

The verse points to the legality of marrying two, three or four wives. This is allowed because it leads to more chastity, lowering the eyesight and guarding the private parts.

Furthermore, that is a cause for more children and the chastity of more women, as well as them being treated properly and cared for.

There is no doubt that the women who has one-half of a husband or one-third or one-fourth is better off than the one who has no husband at all. However, one must meet the condition of justice among the wives and the ability to take care of and tend to the wives. If a person fears he will not do justice, then he may only marry one wife in addition to having slaves. The practice of the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi-wasallam) indicates and stresses that. When he died he had nine wives. And Allah says about him,

''Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow.” (al-Ahzab:21)

The Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi-wasallam) made it clear to his Nation that it was allowed for him to have more than four wives. Therefore, following his example on this point would mean taking four wives or less. Beyond four wives is something that is specific for the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi-wasallam) only.

Shaykh `Abdul-`Azeez Bin Baz

For #3, just 'cause I'm tired already, I present to you the fine, fine people of islamqa.com. What is islamqa.com? IslamQA was founded in 1997 by Saudi Islamic scholar Muhammad Al-Munajid. The site uses a question and answer format. Internet visitors submit questions to Muhammad Al-Munajid who then answers their inquiries. Previously answered questions are available for review through an extensive search engine. The site declares that it only uses "authentic, scholarly sources based on the Quran and sunnah, and other reliable contemporary scholarly opinions."[2]

IslamQA states that its purpose is:[2]

to teach and familiarize Muslims with various aspects of their religion
to be a source for guiding people to Islam
to respond to users questions and inquiries to the best of our resources and capabilities
to assist in solving the social and personal problems of the Muslims in an Islamic context.

Subject areas include "Islamic fiqh and jurisprudence, Islamic history, Islamic social laws (including marriage, divorce, contracts, and inheritance), Islamic finance, basic tenets and aqeedah of the Islamic faith and tawheed, and Arabic grammar as it relates to the Quran and Islamic texts."[2]

And what does it have to say about polygamy?

http://islamqa.info/en/14022
14022: The ruling on plural marriage and the wisdom behind it

I was really into becoming a Muslim. I came to this site to find out how to become Muslim, on doing so I found out alot about the religion I never knew before, and it's kind of disturbing and almost a let down. I'm sorry I feel like that but it's true. One of the things that bother me is the polygamy thing, I would like to know where it addresses that in the Holy Qu'ran, please try to give me tips on how to live like that and remain sane?
Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah concluded His Message to mankind with the religion of Islam, and He tells us that He will not accept any religion other than that. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

Your backing away from the religion of Islam is considered to be a loss for you, and a loss of the happiness that awaited you, had you entered Islam. You should hasten to enter Islam, and beware of delaying, for that delay may lead to regrettable consequences.

With regard to what you mention about the reason for your backing off being the idea of plural marriage [polygamy or polygyny], we will present to you the ruling on plural marriage in Islam, and then the wisdom and noble purposes behind it.

1 – The ruling on plural marriage in Islam:

The shar’i text which permits plural marriage is:

Allaah says in His Holy Book (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3]

This is a Qur’aanic text which shows that plural marriage is allowed. According to Islamic sharee’ah, a man is permitted to marry one, two, three or four wives, in the sense that he may have this number of wives at one time. It is not permissible for him to have more than four. This was stated by the mufassireen (commentators on the Qur’aan) and fuqaha’ (jurists), and there is consensus among the Muslims on this point, with no differing opinions.

It should be noted that there are conditions attached to plural marriage:

1 – Justice or fairness.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3]

This aayah is indicates that just treatment is a condition for plural marriage to be permitted. If a man is afraid that he will not be able to treat his wives justly if he marries more than one, then it is forbidden for him to marry more than one. What is meant by the justice that is required in order for a man to be permitted to have more than one wife is that he should treat his wives equally in terms of spending, clothing, spending the night with them and other material things that are under his control.

With regard to justice or fairness in terms of love, he is not held accountable for that, and that is not required of him because he has no control over that. This is what is meant by the verse,

“You will never be able to do perfect justice between wives even if it is your ardent desire”

[al-Nisa’ 4:129 – interpretation of the meaning].

2 – The ability to spend on one’s wives:

The evidence for this condition is the verse:

“And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allaah enriches them of His Bounty”

[al-Noor 24:33 – interpretation of the meaning]

In this verse Allaah commands those who are able to get married but cannot find the financial means, to remain chaste. One such example is not having enough money to pay the mahr (dowry) and not being able to spend on one’s wife. (al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, part 6, p. 286).

2 – The wisdom behind permitting plural marriage

1 – Plural marriage helps to increase the numbers of the ummah (nation, Muslim community). It is known that the numbers can only be increased through marriage, and the number of offspring gained through plural marriage will be greater than that achieved through marriage to one wife.

Wise people know that increasing the number of offspring will strengthen the ummah and increase the number of workers in it, which will raise its economic standard – if the leaders run the affairs of state well and make use of its resources in a proper manner. Ignore the claims of those who say that increasing the numbers of human beings poses a danger to the earth’s resources which are insufficient, for Allaah the Most Wise Who has prescribed plural marriage has guaranteed to provide provision for His slaves and has created on earth what is more than sufficient for them. Whatever shortfall exists is due to the injustice of administrations, governments and individuals, and due to bad management. Look at China, for example, the greatest nation on earth as far as number of inhabitants is concerned, and it is regarded as one of the strongest nations in the world, and other nations would think twice before upsetting China; it is also one of the great industrialized nations. Who would dare think of attacking China, I wonder? And why?

2 – Statistics show that the number of women is greater than the number of men; if each man were to marry just one woman, this would mean that some women would be left without a husband, which would have a harmful effect on her and on society:

The harmful effect is that she would never find a husband to take care of her interests, to give her a place to live, to spend on her, to protect her from haraam desires, and to give her children to bring her joy. This may lead to deviance and going astray, except for those on whom Allaah has mercy.

With regard to the harmful effects on society, it is well known that this woman who is left without a husband may deviate from the straight path and follow the ways of promiscuity, so she may fall into the swamp of adultery and prostitution – may Allaah keep us safe and sound – which leads to the spread of immorality and the emergence of fatal diseases such as AIDS and other contagious diseases for which there is no cure. It also leads to family breakdown and the birth of children whose identity is unknown, and who do not know who their fathers are.

Those children do not find anyone to show compassion towards them or any mature man to raise them properly. When they go out into the world and find out the truth, that they are illegitimate, that is reflected in their behaviour, and they become exposed to deviance and going astray. They may even bear grudges against society, and who knows? They may become the means of their country’s destruction, leaders of deviant gangs, as is the case in many nations in the world.

3 – Men are exposed to incidents that may end their lives, for they work in dangerous professions. They are the soldiers who fight in battle, and more men may die than women. This is one of the things that raise the percentage of husbandless women, and the only solution to this problem is plural marriage.

4 – There are some men who may have strong physical desires, for whom one wife is not enough. If the door is closed to such a man and he is told, you are not allowed more than one wife, this will cause great hardship to him, and his desire may find outlets in forbidden ways.

In addition to that, a woman menstruates each month, and when she gives birth, she bleeds for forty days (this post-partum bleeding is called nifaas in Arabic), at which time a man cannot have intercourse with his wife, because intercourse at the time of menstruation or nifaas is forbidden, and the harm that it causes has been proven medically. So plural marriage is permitted when one is able to be fair and just.

5 – Plural marriage does not exist only in the Islamic religion, rather it was known among the previous nations. Some of the Prophets were married to more than one woman. The Prophet of Allaah Sulaymaan (Solomon) had ninety wives. At the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), there were some men who became Muslims who had eight or five wives. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told them to keep four wives and to divorce the rest.

6 – A wife may be barren, or she may not meet her husband’s needs, or he may be unable to have intercourse with her because she is sick. A husband may long to have children, which is a legitimate desire, and he may want to have a sex life within marriage, which is something permissible, and the only way is to marry another wife. It is only fair for the wife to agree to remain his wife and to allow him to marry another.

7 – A woman may be one of the man’s relatives and have no one to look after her, and she is unmarried or a widow whose husband has died, and the man may think that the best thing to do for her is to include her in his household as a wife along with his first wife, so that he will both keep her chaste and spend on her. This is better for her than leaving her alone and being content only to spend on her.

8 – There are other shar’i interests that call for plural marriages, such as strengthening the bonds between families, or strengthening the bonds between a leader and some of his people or group, and he may think that one of the ways of achieving this aim is to become related to them through marriage, even if that is through plural marriage.

Just because I want to indulge you and quote not one of the bearded idiots but an enlightened scholar you love, let's consult Mr. Badawi. What does Mr. Badawi have to say? Mr. Badawi says don't marry more than one in the West because the West doesn't allow it, but when the West does allow it, go ahead and do it. He adds a few barbs, too - that damn intolerant West, allows homosexuals to marry but doesn't let us take more than one?? Shame!

http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/fatwa001.html
Focusing more on this issue, the prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Jamal Badawi, professor at Saint Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada and member of the Fiqh Council of North America, adds:

Polygamy is an example where there is a difference between what is legitimate in Islamic Shari`ah and what is considered illegitimate in secular societies. I am not discussing the problem of polygamy; or whether polygamy or monogamy is the norm in Islam; or whether, as many people mistakenly think, Islam really introduced polygamy; or that it is the only Abrahamic religion that limited the number and put conditions. There is no mention of limiting the number of wives either in the Old Testimony or the New Testimony; there are some Christians, like Martin Luther, who said that there is no Biblical evidence to the prohibition of polygamy.

I must say, in the first place, why would a particular person want to have a second wife, even though it might be acceptable or legitimate under the Islamic Shari`ah? Because there is also a spirit of why polygamy has been permitted even though it has not been codified in the Qur'an.

Secondly, a Muslim living in a non-Muslim society is obligated to follow the laws. We cannot say that their laws are contrary to the Shari`ah, so we have to follow the Shari`ah. Taking a second wife is not a necessary requirement; there is no mandatory duty on the Muslim to have a second wife.

If a person has become a resident or a citizen in a European country, it is a condition for him to abide by its laws. When a Muslim man in a European country sticks to not having a second wife, it is like giving up a particular right according to his own Shari`ah. The person who has a second wife could be subject to criminal punishment.

If, however, in the future the non-Muslim societies give Muslims the same right to their personal law that Islam gives to its minorities, that is a different issue. It is known that historically and, in principle, Islam does allow religious minorities to have their own personal law regarding marriage, divorce, division of the estate, and custody of the children according to their own religious teachings. The Christians in Egypt enjoy such a right though they are only a tiny portion of the population. If the Western world reciprocated to Muslims in the West the same kind of tolerance and acceptance of autonomy in issues pertinent to religious practice, including marriage, I think polygamy would be quiet legitimate, and there would be no contradiction between what is permissible under the Islamic Shari`ah and what is permissible under the Western laws.

However, there are strange and contradictory situations in the West. For example, in Canada it has become quite legal for people to get married homosexually with all their rights, including pension, taxes, etc., reserved. I think there is also a pressure in the United States to have something similar. Adultery and fornication have also been permissible in the West for a long period of time. It sounds rather strange that when all these are permitted and some become legal, marrying a second wife is not permitted and is regarded as a criminal act.

To allow homosexuality in the name of liberalism and freedom is a kind of diversion from the innate or fitrah nature in which Almighty Allah created humankind. In terms of our perspectives as Muslims and in terms of the moral standards, this is a setback and decline in the world today.

So I could keep copying and pasting, but I'm tired already, so let's just sum it up. Your opinion that marrying more than one wife is subject to any other conditions (other than equal treatment and no more than four) is a minority position. A tiny, tiny, tiny minority position. There is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is saying that reputable scholars support that position when in actual fact, the number of Islamic scholars who speak against polygamy is so miniscule that finding them takes a real effort. You may disagree with the people I quoted. You may call them backwards, reactionary, whatever. What you can't possibly say about that is that they learned their Islam from Sheikh Google, quoted out of context, cherry-picked quotes, didn't study Islam enough, have huge loopholes in their understanding, and really, they should just listen to Hamza Yusuf and all will be well in the world. Whatever you think of this people, uneducated about Islam they aren't.

You say you don't like Shariah for whatever reason. I'm not telling you to love it, although it is curious that you believe that generations of Islamic scholars and millions of Muslims who relied on their rulings must all have huge loopholes in their understanding. Leave alone Shariah for a second. Let's look at Islamic practice at the time when the Quran appeared. Presumably, Muhammad knew the real reasons of the verses he passed along. Presumably, he would have been in a position to correct people who practiced them wrongly. His closest friends and companions, the salaf, were they mostly polygamous or mostly monogamous? Did they ALL marry to take care of orphans? Is there any evidence of Muhammad ever telling them that they are doing it all wrong? Or is there evidence of him encouraging them to marry more and more?

Lastly, just for kicks, I'd like you to cite me one, just one opinion of a court anywhere in the Muslim-majority country that invalidated a man's marriage to a second, third or fourth wife because it was concluded "for the wrong reasons." You can get to that right after you post the actual numbers on Islam growing by conversion rather than immigration.

Thanks, PP. I can see that this required a lot of your time and work and I, for one, am grateful. I know you will be met with responses ranging from "for the gazillionth time, just watch Yusuf and all will become clear" to "you are an Islamophobe and racist." So I just want to get in a little note of appreciation before that happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry, but you haven't answered a single question, as you had promised. You haven't provided a single figure for converts (although you do gloat about women converts).

Instead, you give give us more links to Yusuf, the oher PP's favorite theologian. (Coincidence? I'm thinking not. It really does seem like you two are one and the same.)

More flowery language. Lots of accusing people of hating Islam for even asking questions.

This is a waste of time. I'm off to work.

The facts of Islam are presented in this thread, thanks to posters who bothered to write them out.

So you never even watched the videos in the links I provided? Wow. HA! You just exposed yourself as a Islamophobe and Islam hater, do you know that? The questions you asked are directly addressed and answered in the youtube links!! You chose not to watch them!

People are Islamophobes because they didn't watch the videos you cited?

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

They are not interested in an honest and educated discussion about Islam and what Muslims believe, that's why I recused myself from the discussion. Jummah Mubarak to you

That's not why. You recused yourself from this discussion because you're out of your depth.

[Anonymous]

PS: for the two of you who were arguing who is a better mother and who posts here at what times, you're childish. Both of you. Who cares when you post? Stick to the substance.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

I think that would be a good thing. It was refreshing reading you as well! I used to blog and write a lot about Islam and it was well received for the most part. I think Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world. Not just by non-Muslims, but by some Muslims as well. Mainly, non-Muslims information on Islam is based on ignorant and islamophobic sources. And many Muslims are born into this religion without anyone really explaining it to them. And unfortunately thre actions and behavior of both groups reflect their lack of understanding. And finally you have people who twist the verses of the Qur'an in order to spread their hate. The end result is a lot of confused people and a lot of confusion about what Islam really teaches. In the end though, speak your heart. Many people won't understand. But that's okay. Your message wasn't meant for them. It will reach those whom it was.

The reason Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world is the gaping schizm between its alleged perfection and the behavior of Muslims as well as facts of life in Muslim countries. Do you want to make people understand Islam? Ask Muslim countries to create an enviable reality within their borders. Ask Muslims to behave like enviable human beings.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And there you have it folks! We have one person who thought she was criticizing Muslims by pointing out most of our converts were Africans and now we have another poster who tells Muslima to go back to her country.

So the whole time we thought they were legitimately seeking info, but now they are exposed as nothing but a handful of RACIST ISLAMOPHOBES.

Islam is a belief system, not a race. Hatred of Islam is not racism, it is hatred of a particular set of beliefs that some individuals have chosen to believe.

It is racist to point out the race of Muslim converts with the intent to de legitimize, undermine, devalue and demean their conversions. Unfortunately for you that racism is not acceptable in Islam. Your posts say a lot about what kind of person you are! It is tragic to live with this level of ignorance in this day and age.

It's not racist to point out the race of Muslim converts. If you think it was done with the intent to de...whatever, that's all on you.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
So you never even watched the videos in the links I provided? Wow. HA! You just exposed yourself as a Islamophobe and Islam hater, do you know that? The questions you asked are directly addressed and answered in the youtube links!! You chose not to watch them!

No matter, because now they are permanently a part of DCUM and I assure you that others will watch them.

I hope you're not a Christian or Jew, as you reflect poorly on the vast majority of Christians and Jews I know.

OK. Muslima provided the links and videos between the hours of 1-3 last night. And you're asking about us watching the links *you* provided. Seems pretty clear that you and Muslima are the same person.

Busted!

Stop lying. I have not posted links to any youtube videos yesterday or the day before, or today......

Salaam Sister,

Hit the REPORT button and tell Jeff about the two posters who posted racist messages on this thread.
I plan to do same.

Salaam sister,

Great. Ignorance and prejudice are the handmaiden of propaganda and this has been demonstrated over and over by those posters. ..racist thought and action says far more about the person they come from than the person they are directed at.

Muslima, I have no idea how you haven't lost your temper with these racist islamophobes. You are a better Muslim than I. Its a testament to your faith. When practiced dutifully, Islam makes a person calm, probably because they fully submitted themself to God. After all that is what Islam literally means, submission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PS: for the two of you who were arguing who is a better mother and who posts here at what times, you're childish. Both of you. Who cares when you post? Stick to the substance.

Yep, that's my game. I'm actually being deliberate about this. I'm exposing Muslima/the other Muslim poster's immaturity, lies, and complete fabrications. I don't care particularly if I'm the object of these fabrications.

My goal is give context for how she approaches facts and truth, by setting her explanations of her religion, and her shrill accusations that anybody with questions is an Islamophobe and racist, firmly in the more down-to-earth context of her (rather hilarious) fabrications about me.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:Ignorance won't take you anywhere. I have said it before and I will say it again, the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. You live under the "Illusion" that you have some knowledge of Islam, but clearly you have not, and that is a fact, not an opinion. The majority of these verses you cite are either taken out of context, or misunderstood due to lack of basic knowledge. Quoting Quranic verses without citing the proper context, lying about what's in the Quran ( yes lies, there is nothing in the Quran that states that the punishment for apostasy is death and you have repeated this over and over, this is just one thing that comes to mind), you rely on some cherry-picked crackpot interpretation of verses, whether you've lived with Muslims, befriended Muslims clearly has not taught you anything about Islam because you are as clueless about the religion as someone who's never even heard about the Quran, really my elementary school child has a better understanding of Islam than you do. Whether you like it or not, every verse in the Quran has to be read within the context under which it was revealed, you can't just randomly cite verses of the Quran while completely ignoring the context, that makes you look extremely ignorant.

Every book is to be dealt with on the basis of what is claims and how it is to be understood. The Qur'an is no exception to this. In principle, you can't pluck a phrase or sentence out of an essay and use it in isolation.Any discussion on Qur’anic verses would be meaningless, without a study of the surrounding context. Antagonists of Islam are guilty of such misreading and distortion of Quranic meanings because they ignore the context of the verses, either through sheer negligence or deliberate suppression. By context i mean the collective meaning derived from a group of verses. Instead of taking one verse and citing it out of context, the correct procedure is to look at the verses before and after in order to acquire a proper meaning of what The Quran is saying. Secondly, to understand certain intricate verses, the reader needs to resort to official and authentic commentaries of The Quran. I mean, honestly, there are muslims dedicating their lives to studying the interpretations of the Quran, the least you could do is listen to the consensus instead of your own amateur attempts. Quoting any text out of context is obviously dishonest, so why do you do it? The reason is that it works! When someone has an agenda and they know that if they expose it, it will not be popular, they must find alternative ways. One such way is to use for evidence, backing their argument, text taken out of context and quoted by respectable sources. This impresses the gullible, thus helping the people making those arguments pursue their agendas. It is no wonder that Islamophobes often quote translations of verses of the Quran stripped from their context, so that their listeners or readers would get the wrong impression about what the verse it about and would not be interested in Islam. Few people actually bother to check out the Quran to verify what they heard or read.

Abdulaziz Bin Baz picked quotes out of context? He didn't understand the meaning of what he was doing? He didn't look at what came before and what came after? Did Qaradawi? Did Bin Bayyah? Did the whole brigade at islamqa.com? I guess they are all antagonists of Islam then.

Muslima wrote:Whether you like it or not more than half of new converts to Islam are women. Why do so many women accept Islam? Didn’t they read the Quran and see that top ten list of oppression? Why did the Quran not repulse these women, and on the contrary, attracted them? why supposedly ‘emancipated’ Western women are turning towards a religion that has always been associated with the oppression of women? Are they just dumb sheep following blindly?

Oh dear, that's easy one. I'm sure many female converts are doing it just for the love of Islam. But remember, I'm married to a Saudi Muslim. A ton - A TON - of female converts do this because they either want to become acceptable to the family of their Muslim fiance (totally unnecessary, if you ask me), or to convince the man to marry them (even less necessary.) There's also the women who are moving with their husbands to a Muslim-majority country and it's just more convenient to be Muslim there. In fact, if my husband is ever appointment the mayor of Mecca, I'm converting on the spot. There's nothing wrong with that, people convert for family reasons all the time, I work with a couple of Indian girls who converted to Judaism to marry Jews. It happens. I do, however, feel compelled to note that Muslim men who truly keep it zabiha aren't supposed to go near girlfriends.

Muslima wrote:
2014 saw the publication of the 30th annual Annual Status of Global Mission in the International Bulletin of Missionary ReseaIn this, the latest edition, the researchers estimate Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world: 1.81% per year vs. 1.53% for the 20 million Sikhs and 1.29% for Christianity.

Source: http://beyond.org/islam-fastest-growing-religion-world/

This doesn't confirm your prior claim that Islam in America grows more by conversion than by immigration.

[Anonymous]

I was first invited to a beheading in Saudi Arabia while working as a physician in Riyadh. It was 1999, and I was an attending intensive care specialist in an advanced medical system that valued my U.S. training. As we finished resuscitating a patient, a colleague casually said: “We’re going to Chop-Chop Square tomorrow. Do you want to see a beheading?”

He was referring to Deera, the Riyadh district surrounding its major seminary and mosque. During the week, Deera bustled with commerce, home to the finest jewelers. But on Fridays, with shops closed for Islam’s holy day, people convicted of capital crimes such as murder, rape and incest were beheaded by the sword-wielding state executioner in full public view.

The horrific irony — saving a life while my colleagues discussed the entertainment of taking one — was too much for me. I politely declined the invitation, and in the days that followed, I did my best to push the incident out of mind as I grappled with the country’s tension between modern and medieval.

...


As a devout Muslim, the tragedies of recent days have packed an added blow. Along with the senseless loss of two promising young lives, I have been forced to confront the fact that the beautiful religion that continues to sustain me — that supports me in my life-giving work as a physician — is increasingly the domain of those who would use it to destroy everything I hold dear.

Recent events have left me able to draw only one conclusion: Islamism — the radical imposter form of my religion — has declared war on Islam.

see - http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/09/05/my-beautiful-faith-is-being-overtaken-by-the-beheaders-ive-interviewed/?hpid=z7

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I said many pages ago that I do NOT base my answers or defense of Islam on the Sharia, as Sharia is MAN MADE law. I base my answers on primarily on the Quran. The Sharia is flawed and does not accurate reflect what God intended. You can not google research Islam or read one or two books to understand it completely. There are huge loopholes in your understanding of the rationale of Islam. You must speak with a few scholars or reputable imams to clarify your questions. Here is one article that provides a couple of passages which explain under what terms more than one wife is permitted: http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/polygamy_in_quran_(P1411).html It may NOT be permitted on a whim. It is an extremely serious decision with very narrow boundaries.

Are you the person who's a fan of Hamza Yusuf? If so, how do you, with your rejection of Shariah, feel about the fact that Mr. Bin Bayyah - Mr. Yusuf's boss - thinks deriding Shariah is basis for takfir?

Hamza Yusuf is a cofounder of Zaytuna College, located in Berkeley, California. He is an advisor to Stanford University's Program in Islamic Studies and the Center for Islamic Studies at Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union. He also serves as a member of the board of advisors of George Russell's One Nation, a national philanthropic initiative that promotes pluralism and inclusion in America. In addition, he serves as vice-president for the Global Center for Guidance and Renewal, which was founded and is currently presided over by Shaykh Abdallah bin Bayyah, one of the top jurists and masters of Islamic sciences in the world. Recently, Hamza Yusuf was ranked as "the Western world's most influential Islamic scholar" by The 500 Most Influential Muslims, edited by John Esposito and Ibrahim Kalin, (2009).

Hey, I got an idea. You were saying Yusuf is accessible and all. Call him up and say, Sheikh, I reject Shariah but your boss says this is tantamount to disbelief. What should I do?

Ruling on Applying Man-Made Laws http://binbayyah.net/english/2012/01/19/ruling-on-applying-man-made-laws/

What is the ruling of applying man-made laws? Can we charge the ruler who rules with man-made laws with disbelief?

In the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Mercy-giving. This issue is problematic and there has been much ado about it. In the past century fatwas were given in this regard. The issue should be dealt with in detail.
First, it is undoubtedly prohibited and an enormous sin to rule with man-made laws, and there are Shari`ah texts contrary to implementing these laws. In the Quran we read, “And judge between them by what Allah has sent down. Nor are you to follow their whims.” [5:49] “Is it, then, the judgment of ignorance that they seek? Yet, who renders a fairer judgment than Allah to a people who have certainty?” [5:50]
As for the charge of disbelief, this is something that cannot be definitely decided unless, along with ruling with these laws, there is explicit derision, degradation or belittling of the status of the Shari`ah. One says, for example, that the Shari`ah is not suitable to be applied, or similar words. But if one believes that the Shari`ah is true and everything else is not true, enacting such laws is not enough reason for the charge of disbelief, as it may be due to his inability, ignorance or imitation of others. Therefore, Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them) said about the Quranic verse that reads, “And whoever does not rule by what Allah has sent down – then such as these are the non-muslims,” [5:44] that this is a lesser disbelief, and about the verse that reads, ” And whoever does not rule by what Allah has sent down – then such as these are the ungodly,” [5:47] that this is a lesser ungodliness, which means that it does not cast the person out of the fold of the religion. This is the position we adopt based on many scholarly statements including statements from Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy with him).
`Adyy ibn Hatem said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) reading from Bara’ah, “They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah” [9:31] and he said, “They did not worship them, but if they made things lawful for them, they would deem it lawful, and if they made things unlawful for them, they would deem it unlawful.” [Reported by al-Termidhy (3095) and others] This is the indirect meaning of worshiping them. They changed the prescribed injunctions given in the name of the lawgiver insomuch that they declared as unlawful what the lawgiver made lawful and as lawful what the lawgiver made unlawful, attributing this to the Shari`ah, such as saying, for example, that the Prayer, Fasting or Zakah are not obligatory in the Shari`ah, or that committing enormous sins is permissible. But committing these enormous sins and letting others commit them is not a reason for disbelief, in itself.
This position is contrary to the position of some muftis and sheikhs in the past century who considered merely doing this as enough reason for the charge of disbelief. We verified this point in a separate study titled (al-Takfeer bi al-Hukm bi Ghayr ma Anzala Allah) in the Contemporary Fiqh Research Magazine. Besides, the charge of disbelief will lead to wars and will stir devastating mischief. It is rather better to educate people and draw their attention to the importance of the Shari`ah and the great benefits the Shari`ah provides. Many of the Muslim countries were colonized and thus they inherited the laws of the colonizers and unconsciously continued in this way, lacking the courage to change these laws.
Hence, we do not deem this as enough reason for the charge of disbelief unless it is accompanied by disparaging or deriding the Shari`ah, or by a deviant conviction. Peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you tell just her to go home? You are a RACIST. How do you know she wasn't born here in the US? Muslima has never, NOT ONCE, expressed any encouragement to commit violence. What in the hell is your problem to blatantly lie like this? How in the hell do you sleep at night disparaging someone falsely like this? Jeff needs to be told about your racism.

That wasn't me, but... you think it's OK to tell posters who disagree with you that they're headed for divorce? What a hypocrite. And maybe that PP was talking about spiritial homes (Wahabism) not physical homes.

*** To be clear, I'm the PP you said is headed for imminent divorce. I never told PP to return to SA, in fact that's my post saying I wouldn't go that far. BUT, the PP who wrote that could EASILY have been referring to the spiritual home of the Wahabbis, but it wouldn't suit your purposes to consider that, would it?

Your MO: put out a heavily whitewashed version of your religion. Call anybody who respectfully questions said whitwashed version a hater. If some less careful poster makes a single mistake, go batsh!t crazy with indignation and use that one thing to try to point your point about how *everybody* who questions Islam is a hater.

Oh I think I know which poster asked Muslima to go back to her country. It might have been UNconsensual. Who else could be that stupid to be so openly racist?
And my guess is you are the one who thought pointing out that Muslim converts are only African American or poor folks was a criticism.
Writing styles provide ample evidence. As for UNconsensual, she can't think, let alone write.