Berkeley vs HYP

[Anonymous]

Is it a dcum thing to put in every Berkeley post that students can’t get classes? cause that just isn’t true, and many students have an easy time navigating their majors. The classes can’t both be eyewateringly massive and no one’s getting the classes they need.

[Anonymous]

I'm curious about the geographic background of those who consistently criticize Cal and other elite public universities. My bet is the bias against publics comes from posters in states like MA or NY, where the flagship universities lack the prestige of schools like Cal, Michigan, or UVA.

Having grown up in CA, I've always viewed Cal as academically equivalent to Stanford, and I deeply respect the egalitarian mission of public universities. Their multiple admission pathways, including community college transfers, reflect a commitment to opportunity and social mobility that elite privates have historically lacked, and probably still do since they've priced out the middle class.

The top students at Cal are academically comparable to those at any Ivy or other elite private, even if they were admitted without test scores. Meanwhile, plenty of Ivy students coast through on family connections, get powered through private feeder schools for the wealthy, or basically just get ahead the way the privileged always seem to do.

Much of the criticism centers on large class sizes and the presence of "average" students at public universities. This reveals an elitist mindset, which is the fear that associating with students of varying abilities will somehow diminish one's own education or prospects. I went to an elite law school and my education wasn't diminished by some of the undeserving privileged dopes wasting space around campus. Some less than elite but hardworking kids are going to do nothing but enhance everyone's experience.

I'd choose a no test score community college transfer who worked their way to Berkeley over an entitled private highs school at Yale grad any day. The former demonstrates grit, determination, and genuine academic achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.

Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!

You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.

No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.

State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.

DP but the PP is right, this view is ignorant. Berkeley has had an excellent reputation for decades.

Sure, but peer schools are UCLA, Michigan, and UVA. Not even close to the Ivy League.

Depends on the subject. Definitely close to (better than?) the lower Ivies. But in any event, the PP’s comment was that upon hearing a kid goes to Berkeley OOS, their response is “how? As in, how could this process have turned out better?” Which is just massively ignorant.

Most of us would not pay out of state tuition for what Berkeley offers, given the alternatives.

Also lower ivies offer a much better overall package. Just read through this thread again.

Why would I rely on this thread when I’ve worked in academia? Many of the people on this forum are ignorant as hell. Half of the comments here are “durr Cal kids are stupid poors cuz of test blind and public tuition” and “it’s cheaper therefore inferior because I don’t know how else to evaluate something other than by its price tag.” No thanks.

I agree, you have to look past the nonsense to see the valid posts. For undergraduate, top ranked academic departments and research opportunities only go so far. The overall package matters. Housing, quality of life, size of lectures and seminars, ability to enroll in classes, gen Ed classes outside major.

Some people prioritize top ranked academic departments and research opportunities, along with living in a big city, and doing internships at companies that are industry leaders, with the possibility to settle in that area.

That’s how they end up at Berkeley even if oos.

It’s all about fit between life/carrer goals, and college. If you’re interested in engineering it doesn’t matter how the school does in humanities, law and medicine. That’s why the general rankings are useless and major specific matter more.

For the engineering example, I wouldn’t take Yale over Berkeley, maybe not even Harvard or Princeton. Ivies are just not very good in this area. I’d take MIT, Stanford, Caltech over Berkeley in a heartbeat.

The choice is very different if you’re interested in law, then Yale and Harvard are at the top. It’s going to be different for people targeting medical school, business etc.

Just going by prestige popular ranking because your aunt heard of is completely misguided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about the geographic background of those who consistently criticize Cal and other elite public universities. My bet is the bias against publics comes from posters in states like MA or NY, where the flagship universities lack the prestige of schools like Cal, Michigan, or UVA.

Having grown up in CA, I've always viewed Cal as academically equivalent to Stanford, and I deeply respect the egalitarian mission of public universities. Their multiple admission pathways, including community college transfers, reflect a commitment to opportunity and social mobility that elite privates have historically lacked, and probably still do since they've priced out the middle class.

The top students at Cal are academically comparable to those at any Ivy or other elite private, even if they were admitted without test scores. Meanwhile, plenty of Ivy students coast through on family connections, get powered through private feeder schools for the wealthy, or basically just get ahead the way the privileged always seem to do.

Much of the criticism centers on large class sizes and the presence of "average" students at public universities. This reveals an elitist mindset, which is the fear that associating with students of varying abilities will somehow diminish one's own education or prospects. I went to an elite law school and my education wasn't diminished by some of the undeserving privileged dopes wasting space around campus. Some less than elite but hardworking kids are going to do nothing but enhance everyone's experience.

I'd choose a no test score community college transfer who worked their way to Berkeley over an entitled private highs school at Yale grad any day. The former demonstrates grit, determination, and genuine academic achievement.

This made me laugh. No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.

Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!

You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.

No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.

State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.

DP but the PP is right, this view is ignorant. Berkeley has had an excellent reputation for decades.

Sure, but peer schools are UCLA, Michigan, and UVA. Not even close to the Ivy League.

Depends on the subject. Definitely close to (better than?) the lower Ivies. But in any event, the PP’s comment was that upon hearing a kid goes to Berkeley OOS, their response is “how? As in, how could this process have turned out better?” Which is just massively ignorant.

Most of us would not pay out of state tuition for what Berkeley offers, given the alternatives.

Also lower ivies offer a much better overall package. Just read through this thread again.

Why would I rely on this thread when I’ve worked in academia? Many of the people on this forum are ignorant as hell. Half of the comments here are “durr Cal kids are stupid poors cuz of test blind and public tuition” and “it’s cheaper therefore inferior because I don’t know how else to evaluate something other than by its price tag.” No thanks.

I agree, you have to look past the nonsense to see the valid posts. For undergraduate, top ranked academic departments and research opportunities only go so far. The overall package matters. Housing, quality of life, size of lectures and seminars, ability to enroll in classes, gen Ed classes outside major.

Some people prioritize top ranked academic departments and research opportunities, along with living in a big city, and doing internships at companies that are industry leaders, with the possibility to settle in that area.

That’s how they end up at Berkeley even if oos.

It’s all about fit between life/carrer goals, and college. If you’re interested in engineering it doesn’t matter how the school does in humanities, law and medicine. That’s why the general rankings are useless and major specific matter more.

For the engineering example, I wouldn’t take Yale over Berkeley, maybe not even Harvard or Princeton. Ivies are just not very good in this area. I’d take MIT, Stanford, Caltech over Berkeley in a heartbeat.

The choice is very different if you’re interested in law, then Yale and Harvard are at the top. It’s going to be different for people targeting medical school, business etc.

Just going by prestige popular ranking because your aunt heard of is completely misguided.

You realize how common it is for college students to change their majors? Do people really want to spend their whole career as an engineer or do they want to manage engineers? There are reasons why the top schools are ahead in general rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.

Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!

You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.

No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.

State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.

DP but the PP is right, this view is ignorant. Berkeley has had an excellent reputation for decades.

Sure, but peer schools are UCLA, Michigan, and UVA. Not even close to the Ivy League.

Depends on the subject. Definitely close to (better than?) the lower Ivies. But in any event, the PP’s comment was that upon hearing a kid goes to Berkeley OOS, their response is “how? As in, how could this process have turned out better?” Which is just massively ignorant.

Most of us would not pay out of state tuition for what Berkeley offers, given the alternatives.

Also lower ivies offer a much better overall package. Just read through this thread again.

Why would I rely on this thread when I’ve worked in academia? Many of the people on this forum are ignorant as hell. Half of the comments here are “durr Cal kids are stupid poors cuz of test blind and public tuition” and “it’s cheaper therefore inferior because I don’t know how else to evaluate something other than by its price tag.” No thanks.

I agree, you have to look past the nonsense to see the valid posts. For undergraduate, top ranked academic departments and research opportunities only go so far. The overall package matters. Housing, quality of life, size of lectures and seminars, ability to enroll in classes, gen Ed classes outside major.

Housing availability and affordability depends on the location. If you want to attend a college in a big city, it comes with it. That’s true for all colleges in New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago. You want a small college town vibe and quiet atmosphere go to Dartmouth. It’s all about choices and preferences.

No. Guaranteed housing at rates set by the university has come to be expected. This is what decent colleges are offering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it a dcum thing to put in every Berkeley post that students can’t get classes? cause that just isn’t true, and many students have an easy time navigating their majors. The classes can’t both be eyewateringly massive and no one’s getting the classes they need.

It's just a lazy criticism. Cal graduates 9,000 kids a year, so at least some appear to get classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a dcum thing to put in every Berkeley post that students can’t get classes? cause that just isn’t true, and many students have an easy time navigating their majors. The classes can’t both be eyewateringly massive and no one’s getting the classes they need.

It's just a lazy criticism. Cal graduates 9,000 kids a year, so at least some appear to get classes.

Getting enough classes to graduate is very different from getting the classes that interest you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about the geographic background of those who consistently criticize Cal and other elite public universities. My bet is the bias against publics comes from posters in states like MA or NY, where the flagship universities lack the prestige of schools like Cal, Michigan, or UVA.

Having grown up in CA, I've always viewed Cal as academically equivalent to Stanford, and I deeply respect the egalitarian mission of public universities. Their multiple admission pathways, including community college transfers, reflect a commitment to opportunity and social mobility that elite privates have historically lacked, and probably still do since they've priced out the middle class.

The top students at Cal are academically comparable to those at any Ivy or other elite private, even if they were admitted without test scores. Meanwhile, plenty of Ivy students coast through on family connections, get powered through private feeder schools for the wealthy, or basically just get ahead the way the privileged always seem to do.

Much of the criticism centers on large class sizes and the presence of "average" students at public universities. This reveals an elitist mindset, which is the fear that associating with students of varying abilities will somehow diminish one's own education or prospects. I went to an elite law school and my education wasn't diminished by some of the undeserving privileged dopes wasting space around campus. Some less than elite but hardworking kids are going to do nothing but enhance everyone's experience.

I'd choose a no test score community college transfer who worked their way to Berkeley over an entitled private highs school at Yale grad any day. The former demonstrates grit, determination, and genuine academic achievement.

I’d agree with this. Both Ivies and Cal have their share of unqualified and mediocre students. At Ivies it’s the donor and legacy admits, at Cal it’s a weird subset of cheaters and social engineering.

As to mediocre students, Cal admissions has become very strange in the past several years. They got into trouble with state auditors in 2020 for admitting donor and staff kids who were unqualified. They seem to pluck random kids out of schools bypassing better qualified kids. I almost wonder whether this is a legal strategy to protect against the continual lawsuits from Asian families. They lean hard into zip code and low income to favor minority candidates. They don’t verify anything beyond transcripts so it’s a Mecca for those willing to boldly fabricate their story and ECs. Cal doesn’t care at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a dcum thing to put in every Berkeley post that students can’t get classes? cause that just isn’t true, and many students have an easy time navigating their majors. The classes can’t both be eyewateringly massive and no one’s getting the classes they need.

It's just a lazy criticism. Cal graduates 9,000 kids a year, so at least some appear to get classes.

Getting enough classes to graduate is very different from getting the classes that interest you.

No it’s getting the requirements in the right sequence within four years. The second level of angst is trying to avoid the truly awful instructors. If you are already at a school that prides itself on being deflationary then taking a course with a horrible instructor is even more stress inducing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.

Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!

You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.

No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.

State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.

DP but the PP is right, this view is ignorant. Berkeley has had an excellent reputation for decades.

Sure, but peer schools are UCLA, Michigan, and UVA. Not even close to the Ivy League.

Depends on the subject. Definitely close to (better than?) the lower Ivies. But in any event, the PP’s comment was that upon hearing a kid goes to Berkeley OOS, their response is “how? As in, how could this process have turned out better?” Which is just massively ignorant.

Most of us would not pay out of state tuition for what Berkeley offers, given the alternatives.

Also lower ivies offer a much better overall package. Just read through this thread again.

Why would I rely on this thread when I’ve worked in academia? Many of the people on this forum are ignorant as hell. Half of the comments here are “durr Cal kids are stupid poors cuz of test blind and public tuition” and “it’s cheaper therefore inferior because I don’t know how else to evaluate something other than by its price tag.” No thanks.

I agree, you have to look past the nonsense to see the valid posts. For undergraduate, top ranked academic departments and research opportunities only go so far. The overall package matters. Housing, quality of life, size of lectures and seminars, ability to enroll in classes, gen Ed classes outside major.

Some people prioritize top ranked academic departments and research opportunities, along with living in a big city, and doing internships at companies that are industry leaders, with the possibility to settle in that area.

That’s how they end up at Berkeley even if oos.

It’s all about fit between life/carrer goals, and college. If you’re interested in engineering it doesn’t matter how the school does in humanities, law and medicine. That’s why the general rankings are useless and major specific matter more.

For the engineering example, I wouldn’t take Yale over Berkeley, maybe not even Harvard or Princeton. Ivies are just not very good in this area. I’d take MIT, Stanford, Caltech over Berkeley in a heartbeat.

The choice is very different if you’re interested in law, then Yale and Harvard are at the top. It’s going to be different for people targeting medical school, business etc.

Just going by prestige popular ranking because your aunt heard of is completely misguided.

You realize how common it is for college students to change their majors? Do people really want to spend their whole career as an engineer or do they want to manage engineers? There are reasons why the top schools are ahead in general rankings.

If you want to know why rankings are what they are check the listed methodology. It’s going to be a shocker to you, it’s not because their graduates end up being managers. I guarantee you nobody is going to climb the corporate ladder because of where they went to undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.

Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!

You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.

No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.

State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.

Just so you know, opinions about Berkeley in California are probably as polarizing, if not more so, than OOS. We are more familiar with many issues related to housing, class availability and toxic competition. It isn’t romanticized. I know 2 kids from my son’s class who got accepted to Berkeley and then got off the waitlist for UCLA and will go there instead. It is a great fit for some but not others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.

Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!

You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.

No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.

State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.

Just so you know, opinions about Berkeley in California are probably as polarizing, if not more so, than OOS. We are more familiar with many issues related to housing, class availability and toxic competition. It isn’t romanticized. I know 2 kids from my son’s class who got accepted to Berkeley and then got off the waitlist for UCLA and will go there instead. It is a great fit for some but not others.

Polarizing not for Cal's status as public, but because of the reasons you mentioned and the fact that it has been destination for strange people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about the geographic background of those who consistently criticize Cal and other elite public universities. My bet is the bias against publics comes from posters in states like MA or NY, where the flagship universities lack the prestige of schools like Cal, Michigan, or UVA.

Having grown up in CA, I've always viewed Cal as academically equivalent to Stanford, and I deeply respect the egalitarian mission of public universities. Their multiple admission pathways, including community college transfers, reflect a commitment to opportunity and social mobility that elite privates have historically lacked, and probably still do since they've priced out the middle class.

The top students at Cal are academically comparable to those at any Ivy or other elite private, even if they were admitted without test scores. Meanwhile, plenty of Ivy students coast through on family connections, get powered through private feeder schools for the wealthy, or basically just get ahead the way the privileged always seem to do.

Much of the criticism centers on large class sizes and the presence of "average" students at public universities. This reveals an elitist mindset, which is the fear that associating with students of varying abilities will somehow diminish one's own education or prospects. I went to an elite law school and my education wasn't diminished by some of the undeserving privileged dopes wasting space around campus. Some less than elite but hardworking kids are going to do nothing but enhance everyone's experience.

I'd choose a no test score community college transfer who worked their way to Berkeley over an entitled private highs school at Yale grad any day. The former demonstrates grit, determination, and genuine academic achievement.

I’d agree with this. Both Ivies and Cal have their share of unqualified and mediocre students. At Ivies it’s the donor and legacy admits, at Cal it’s a weird subset of cheaters and social engineering.

As to mediocre students, Cal admissions has become very strange in the past several years. They got into trouble with state auditors in 2020 for admitting donor and staff kids who were unqualified. They seem to pluck random kids out of schools bypassing better qualified kids. I almost wonder whether this is a legal strategy to protect against the continual lawsuits from Asian families. They lean hard into zip code and low income to favor minority candidates. They don’t verify anything beyond transcripts so it’s a Mecca for those willing to boldly fabricate their story and ECs. Cal doesn’t care at all.

This is not the experience at my son’s high school. Cal appears to rely heavily on class rank as only students at the highest levels get admitted, with nearly all out of an elite program constituted of mostly UMC kids. I also wonder how much Cal favors POC applicants other than Asians when African Americans are nearly invisible there and Latinos are less represented there than most other UC schools, including UCLA, a harder admit, with UCLA having nearly 25% and Cal only around 15%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about the geographic background of those who consistently criticize Cal and other elite public universities. My bet is the bias against publics comes from posters in states like MA or NY, where the flagship universities lack the prestige of schools like Cal, Michigan, or UVA.

Having grown up in CA, I've always viewed Cal as academically equivalent to Stanford, and I deeply respect the egalitarian mission of public universities. Their multiple admission pathways, including community college transfers, reflect a commitment to opportunity and social mobility that elite privates have historically lacked, and probably still do since they've priced out the middle class.

The top students at Cal are academically comparable to those at any Ivy or other elite private, even if they were admitted without test scores. Meanwhile, plenty of Ivy students coast through on family connections, get powered through private feeder schools for the wealthy, or basically just get ahead the way the privileged always seem to do.

Much of the criticism centers on large class sizes and the presence of "average" students at public universities. This reveals an elitist mindset, which is the fear that associating with students of varying abilities will somehow diminish one's own education or prospects. I went to an elite law school and my education wasn't diminished by some of the undeserving privileged dopes wasting space around campus. Some less than elite but hardworking kids are going to do nothing but enhance everyone's experience.

I'd choose a no test score community college transfer who worked their way to Berkeley over an entitled private highs school at Yale grad any day. The former demonstrates grit, determination, and genuine academic achievement.

I’d agree with this. Both Ivies and Cal have their share of unqualified and mediocre students. At Ivies it’s the donor and legacy admits, at Cal it’s a weird subset of cheaters and social engineering.

As to mediocre students, Cal admissions has become very strange in the past several years. They got into trouble with state auditors in 2020 for admitting donor and staff kids who were unqualified. They seem to pluck random kids out of schools bypassing better qualified kids. I almost wonder whether this is a legal strategy to protect against the continual lawsuits from Asian families. They lean hard into zip code and low income to favor minority candidates. They don’t verify anything beyond transcripts so it’s a Mecca for those willing to boldly fabricate their story and ECs. Cal doesn’t care at all.

Ivies have 20% fgli. It’s not better there.