Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after prIvate schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
+1
Posters: Berkeley is a great school and all, especially in-state, but not Ivy quality.
Response: How dare you bash this school!
Someone said it is comparable to UVA however the overall experience is probably better at UVA. This sounds right.
If you care about a specific academic department ranking above all else, then we are happy for you to attend Berkeley.
In trying to make an assessment of a school it’s very difficult to evaluate things like “experience”. Do you survey the undergrads, rely on your niece etc, tell apart fact from fiction etc.
At least department rankings have a better semblance of objective measures and capture how the industry sees the school.
In my view that’s better correlated with professional success than experience, but to each their own.
There is nothing subjective about class availability, number of students in lectures, size of small groups with faculty teaching, guaranteed on-campus housing, endowment size, amount of money the university spends per student, on-campus recruiting, average salary and employment after graduation.
For a lot of students choosing Berkeley, the most attractive aspect is access to working on cutting edge research because that can translate into a great job at the companies that will eventually commercialize the research which is a huge advantage in the job market. By this metric Berkeley is absolutely on par with HYPSM. You don’t get that at UVA, SLACS etc. Year it’s more grindy, and classes are big, but in the end you’re putting up with it. I don’t care that the physics recitation has one TA for 10 students and they explain the problem set three times if you need to, I care about working on gene therapy while in undergrad so I can get an internship at the startup that will be bought by Pfizer.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after prIvate schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
+1
Posters: Berkeley is a great school and all, especially in-state, but not Ivy quality.
Response: How dare you bash this school!
Someone said it is comparable to UVA however the overall experience is probably better at UVA. This sounds right.
If you care about a specific academic department ranking above all else, then we are happy for you to attend Berkeley.
In trying to make an assessment of a school it’s very difficult to evaluate things like “experience”. Do you survey the undergrads, rely on your niece etc, tell apart fact from fiction etc.
At least department rankings have a better semblance of objective measures and capture how the industry sees the school.
In my view that’s better correlated with professional success than experience, but to each their own.
There is nothing subjective about class availability, number of students in lectures, size of small groups with faculty teaching, guaranteed on-campus housing, endowment size, amount of money the university spends per student, on-campus recruiting, average salary and employment after graduation.
For a lot of students choosing Berkeley, the most attractive aspect is access to working on cutting edge research because that can translate into a great job at the companies that will eventually commercialize the research which is a huge advantage in the job market. By this metric Berkeley is absolutely on par with HYPSM. You don’t get that at UVA, SLACS etc. Year it’s more grindy, and classes are big, but in the end you’re putting up with it. I don’t care that the physics recitation has one TA for 10 students and they explain the problem set three times if you need to, I care about working on gene therapy while in undergrad so I can get an internship at the startup that will be bought by Pfizer.
You are kidding yourself if you think that is common. Undergraduates are virtually useless in labs. They don't know anything and they get in the way of the graduate students actually doing the work. Berkely is absolutely one of the best graduate schools but it's not where I would want to be if I was a remotely typical student.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after private schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
You have the same choices. Most kids at Buffalo and Stony Brook get the same education that they would receive at UCB. You don't get the weather and you need to work harder for internships but as far as the actual education goes you're all set. I am in the Bay area and I know multiple families with kids at Stony Brook and Bing, choosing them over UCs.
Anonymous wrote:I would argue even Scripps and Pitzer have better education quality than UCB or UCLA.
Seriously, Occidental, Pepperdine, Loyola Marymount, and Santa Clara are all really good colleges, providing education quality on par with UCB or UCLA.
SJSU is as much a feeder as UCB in terms of tech job in the Bay Area.
I like your enthusiasm but let’s not get carried away.
They aren't getting carried away at all. Top CS student at SJSU will place as well as anyone from anywhere.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after prIvate schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
+1
Posters: Berkeley is a great school and all, especially in-state, but not Ivy quality.
Response: How dare you bash this school!
Someone said it is comparable to UVA however the overall experience is probably better at UVA. This sounds right.
If you care about a specific academic department ranking above all else, then we are happy for you to attend Berkeley.
In trying to make an assessment of a school it’s very difficult to evaluate things like “experience”. Do you survey the undergrads, rely on your niece etc, tell apart fact from fiction etc.
At least department rankings have a better semblance of objective measures and capture how the industry sees the school.
In my view that’s better correlated with professional success than experience, but to each their own.
There is nothing subjective about class availability, number of students in lectures, size of small groups with faculty teaching, guaranteed on-campus housing, endowment size, amount of money the university spends per student, on-campus recruiting, average salary and employment after graduation.
For a lot of students choosing Berkeley, the most attractive aspect is access to working on cutting edge research because that can translate into a great job at the companies that will eventually commercialize the research which is a huge advantage in the job market. By this metric Berkeley is absolutely on par with HYPSM. You don’t get that at UVA, SLACS etc. Year it’s more grindy, and classes are big, but in the end you’re putting up with it. I don’t care that the physics recitation has one TA for 10 students and they explain the problem set three times if you need to, I care about working on gene therapy while in undergrad so I can get an internship at the startup that will be bought by Pfizer.
This cannot be more false and is exactly one of the problems of Berkeley. Very small percentage of Berkeley student actually have the opportunity of doing research with a professor relative to ivies
Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.
“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.
“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?
lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.
Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!
You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.
No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.
State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.
Just so you know, opinions about Berkeley in California are probably as polarizing, if not more so, than OOS. We are more familiar with many issues related to housing, class availability and toxic competition. It isn’t romanticized. I know 2 kids from my son’s class who got accepted to Berkeley and then got off the waitlist for UCLA and will go there instead. It is a great fit for some but not others.
Polarizing not for Cal's status as public, but because of the reasons you mentioned and the fact that it has been destination for strange people.
Who are those strange people? UC’s still end up having strong undergrad programs. It’s fine if you don’t like the culture or student life and decide something else is better for you.
At our good CA public high school about 30% of all students apply to Berkeley, and 3% get admitted (10-15), the numbers are similar for UCLA. That’s in line with the admission rate of about 10% for both Cal and UCLA. They are top students, the admission is very competitive.
HYPSM admission rate is about 5%, so they are more competitive, although some programs at Berkeley like MET (dual engineering and business degree) have admission rates below 3%. For comparison UVA admission rate is 17%.
The truth is plenty of students want to go to Berkeley in and out of state.
This looks about right for good CA public schools. It also holds for most good privates as well with acceptances in line with the overall average for UCLA and UCB.
In my experience there is a difference between public and private in terms of who attends UCB. At most of the top bay area privates the very top students do not covet (or attend UCB or UCLA). They mostly target top privates as their first choice. My top 5% kid did this as well with no interest in attending UCB based on her experience living in the bay area and knowing who went from her school. The school CCs actually ask the very top kids not to apply to UCLA and UCB unless they are actually interested in attending because the acceptance rates never vary by more than a kid or two. The UCs seem to be much more attractive to top public school kids.
That makes a lot of sense. If you pay $50k a year in tuition at a private high school you’re not going to blink at $60k tuition at Stanford, if you’re competitive enough to be admitted. But all these schools are more or less lottery tickets, and it’s conceivable that most applicants, top 5% included, will not get in HYPSM. The admission strategy may or may not include Berkeley, but a decent number go there. For College Preparatory, an “elite” private high school in the Bay Area, Berkeley is the third most attended university after Chicago and Swarthmore. The attended universities list skews private, but again we’re talking people that are not concerned with cost. Either way Berkeley is there in the mix with Ivies, LACs, etc. I don’t know a single person that would look down at Cal as not worthy enough.
Not sure I understand the comment about knowing who went to Berkeley from her high school. Is it that she doesn’t want to mix with the poor, the nerdy, or the strivers? Seems kind of shallow to me.
I give credit to UC admissions, they do identify the top students, that can be clearly seen in my kids schools SCOIR data. Quite a few kids do go to UCB from her school every year but the very top students for the most part (some exceptions of course) do not consider UCB as a top choice. It's not looking down on UCB, it's the environment (which has been well covered) along with the crazy admissions process for the top UCs. There is also a very clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB among the top students at our school.
I'm not sure why you would insinuate that my child is shallow because she wasn't interested in UCB? Seems pretty shallow to me, especially since you know nothing about her except that she was in the top 5% of her class at a top Bay area private.
I’m saying you and your kid are shallow for discarding Berkeley because of “knowing who went from her school”. Your words, not mine, but please elaborate what you mean by that. Is it the “clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB”? You’re not helping your cause, it’s probably better for everyone she’s not interested in Berkeley.
Your logic is quite faulty, if “quite a few students go to Berkeley every year,” then that’s a good compromise between where they want to go and where they can get in. I doubt you have the insight to tell if they are top students or not, unless you have unrestricted access to their application. More likely you base your evaluation on what your daughter tells you, which I hope you realize it’s not a very reliable way to tell top students apart.
My kid isn't shallow, you are an idiot. The fact that the majority of kids from her school who want to attend UCB are Asian is what it is, a simple fact and nothing else. They are also Engineering/CS grinds to help clarify things for you.
Of course she knows who the top students are, every kid does because they take the same classes together. You might not know the quality of somebodies essays but if you think that your kid cannot tell you who the top students are you are delusional. They also get notified if they are ELC so the top 9% is obvious and there is an award for the top 5% so they all know that as well.
My kids didn't want to attend UCB because she fully understands the 'experience' because she has friends there and she wanted a better learning environment since she sees, hears about, and understands some of the challenges that go with attending UCB. She also didn't want to attend because she very smart but not pointy and most of the kids who really want to attend from her school are CS and engineering oriented kids who she doesn't really connect with in her closest friend group. She also had plenty of other choices so why choose something that doesn't fit your needs?
Finally, since you want to imply racism I will point out that she is half-Asian and looks Asian. So please take your implied racist rhetoric and wander off.
Ok, let’s assume that when your said your kid didn’t want to apply to Berkeley “knowing who went from her school” she was referring to not fitting the mold of grindy, pointy, engineering/CS type Asian kids. Of course the stereotyping is not racist because she looks Asian and it’s just a simple fact and nothing else.
Curious where your top 5% student from a top private in the Bay Area ended up and in what major. I bet it’s not HYPSM because you’d have mentioned it multiple times by now.
Why would I have mentioned it? The conversation wasn't about my kid, it's about UCB. But since you ask I'll give you a bit but not too much since I don't want to dox her.
She's a Math major and she didn't go to HYPSM. She, did turn down MIT again because of fit and she ended up at a top SLAC in the end. And, before you go off the handle and say something foolish like 'no way she got into MIT' she was a recruited athlete.
No sure how that added to the UCB conversation but if it makes you feel better.
You brought your kid into the conversation. Specifically as a top 5% student from a top private that wouldn’t even consider Berkeley.
If you’re going to lie about MIT at least check your facts. From the MIT website:
“Unlike many other schools, MIT does not send “likely letters” or do “signings,” nor do our coaches have discretionary “slots” which they may fill. Prospective athletes to MIT are subject to the same rigorous, academically-focused admissions process as all other applicants.”
Amazingly, your top 5% of a top private student majoring in math didn’t bother to apply to the #3 school in math (Berkeley) and turned down the #1 school (MIT) because of bad fit.
You have zero credibility.
Again you're an idiot but I'll help out. She is targeting Finance and UCB isn't particularly great for IB. They send a decent number but on a per capita basis there are many better schools. Same for MIT though I think in their case it is that the students just aren't that interested in Wall Street. Clubs are also a mess and your recruiting process doesn't have the same level of Alumni help. She also wouldn't have been able to play her sport at UCB and athletics is a huge hook for banking, especially during the recruiting process.
Finally as has been well covered in this thread undergrad at UCB is a shitty experience with large classes and little support which is the exact opposite of what she gets now.
You’re such a clown! Berkeley and MIT rank 5 and 6 in Finance which btw is different from investment banking which is not really a discipline, it’s an industry.
Nobody gives a hoot about clubs. You want to build a network, go to a school in a financial or tech node, like New York, Bay Area and Boston and use every summer for an internship to get your foot in the door.
Alumni networking is marginally useful but doesn’t compare to people you actually worked with.
DP but it's pretty clear PP knows IB is not a discipline. And I can confirm Berkeley is a bit of a Thunderdome for finance outcomes. Competition starts freshman year with recruitment into the top clubs/frats (yes it does matter) which often make tremendous demands on students time even as freshmen. Look at Delta Sigma Phi as an example of how bad it can get. The sad part is that their alumni actually did/do very well in IB, so for some members it was worth the hazing. If you want to go to a school where simply getting in is sufficient for IB, Berkeley is not the place.
No, it doesn’t. It’s a complete waste of time. A bunch of undergrads make a club and go to companies asking about internships making themselves more important than they are. They take for themselves anything that is good anyways. Just go straight to a professor, university career office, job fairs (many companies have presence at large universities like Berkeley) or spam companies on your own instead. Most investment banking is in NY, Bay Area is known for venture capital.
I disagree, if your assertion is correct why do athletes have huge advantages in IB placement? Especially from the NE schools (Ivies and NESCAC) for spots on both coasts. CMC athletes also do very well.
It is not hard to get research at Berkeley, but it will be difficult to find a lab that will give an undergrad much responsibility. Summer research, particularly at mid sized private universities and liberal arts colleges, are the best opportunities for undergraduate students to do real, meaningful research where, if they get published, their name will be on the manuscript.
Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.
“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.
“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?
lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.
Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!
You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.
No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.
State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.
Just so you know, opinions about Berkeley in California are probably as polarizing, if not more so, than OOS. We are more familiar with many issues related to housing, class availability and toxic competition. It isn’t romanticized. I know 2 kids from my son’s class who got accepted to Berkeley and then got off the waitlist for UCLA and will go there instead. It is a great fit for some but not others.
Polarizing not for Cal's status as public, but because of the reasons you mentioned and the fact that it has been destination for strange people.
Who are those strange people? UC’s still end up having strong undergrad programs. It’s fine if you don’t like the culture or student life and decide something else is better for you.
At our good CA public high school about 30% of all students apply to Berkeley, and 3% get admitted (10-15), the numbers are similar for UCLA. That’s in line with the admission rate of about 10% for both Cal and UCLA. They are top students, the admission is very competitive.
HYPSM admission rate is about 5%, so they are more competitive, although some programs at Berkeley like MET (dual engineering and business degree) have admission rates below 3%. For comparison UVA admission rate is 17%.
The truth is plenty of students want to go to Berkeley in and out of state.
This looks about right for good CA public schools. It also holds for most good privates as well with acceptances in line with the overall average for UCLA and UCB.
In my experience there is a difference between public and private in terms of who attends UCB. At most of the top bay area privates the very top students do not covet (or attend UCB or UCLA). They mostly target top privates as their first choice. My top 5% kid did this as well with no interest in attending UCB based on her experience living in the bay area and knowing who went from her school. The school CCs actually ask the very top kids not to apply to UCLA and UCB unless they are actually interested in attending because the acceptance rates never vary by more than a kid or two. The UCs seem to be much more attractive to top public school kids.
That makes a lot of sense. If you pay $50k a year in tuition at a private high school you’re not going to blink at $60k tuition at Stanford, if you’re competitive enough to be admitted. But all these schools are more or less lottery tickets, and it’s conceivable that most applicants, top 5% included, will not get in HYPSM. The admission strategy may or may not include Berkeley, but a decent number go there. For College Preparatory, an “elite” private high school in the Bay Area, Berkeley is the third most attended university after Chicago and Swarthmore. The attended universities list skews private, but again we’re talking people that are not concerned with cost. Either way Berkeley is there in the mix with Ivies, LACs, etc. I don’t know a single person that would look down at Cal as not worthy enough.
Not sure I understand the comment about knowing who went to Berkeley from her high school. Is it that she doesn’t want to mix with the poor, the nerdy, or the strivers? Seems kind of shallow to me.
I give credit to UC admissions, they do identify the top students, that can be clearly seen in my kids schools SCOIR data. Quite a few kids do go to UCB from her school every year but the very top students for the most part (some exceptions of course) do not consider UCB as a top choice. It's not looking down on UCB, it's the environment (which has been well covered) along with the crazy admissions process for the top UCs. There is also a very clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB among the top students at our school.
I'm not sure why you would insinuate that my child is shallow because she wasn't interested in UCB? Seems pretty shallow to me, especially since you know nothing about her except that she was in the top 5% of her class at a top Bay area private.
I’m saying you and your kid are shallow for discarding Berkeley because of “knowing who went from her school”. Your words, not mine, but please elaborate what you mean by that. Is it the “clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB”? You’re not helping your cause, it’s probably better for everyone she’s not interested in Berkeley.
Your logic is quite faulty, if “quite a few students go to Berkeley every year,” then that’s a good compromise between where they want to go and where they can get in. I doubt you have the insight to tell if they are top students or not, unless you have unrestricted access to their application. More likely you base your evaluation on what your daughter tells you, which I hope you realize it’s not a very reliable way to tell top students apart.
My kid isn't shallow, you are an idiot. The fact that the majority of kids from her school who want to attend UCB are Asian is what it is, a simple fact and nothing else. They are also Engineering/CS grinds to help clarify things for you.
Of course she knows who the top students are, every kid does because they take the same classes together. You might not know the quality of somebodies essays but if you think that your kid cannot tell you who the top students are you are delusional. They also get notified if they are ELC so the top 9% is obvious and there is an award for the top 5% so they all know that as well.
My kids didn't want to attend UCB because she fully understands the 'experience' because she has friends there and she wanted a better learning environment since she sees, hears about, and understands some of the challenges that go with attending UCB. She also didn't want to attend because she very smart but not pointy and most of the kids who really want to attend from her school are CS and engineering oriented kids who she doesn't really connect with in her closest friend group. She also had plenty of other choices so why choose something that doesn't fit your needs?
Finally, since you want to imply racism I will point out that she is half-Asian and looks Asian. So please take your implied racist rhetoric and wander off.
Ok, let’s assume that when your said your kid didn’t want to apply to Berkeley “knowing who went from her school” she was referring to not fitting the mold of grindy, pointy, engineering/CS type Asian kids. Of course the stereotyping is not racist because she looks Asian and it’s just a simple fact and nothing else.
Curious where your top 5% student from a top private in the Bay Area ended up and in what major. I bet it’s not HYPSM because you’d have mentioned it multiple times by now.
Why would I have mentioned it? The conversation wasn't about my kid, it's about UCB. But since you ask I'll give you a bit but not too much since I don't want to dox her.
She's a Math major and she didn't go to HYPSM. She, did turn down MIT again because of fit and she ended up at a top SLAC in the end. And, before you go off the handle and say something foolish like 'no way she got into MIT' she was a recruited athlete.
No sure how that added to the UCB conversation but if it makes you feel better.
You brought your kid into the conversation. Specifically as a top 5% student from a top private that wouldn’t even consider Berkeley.
If you’re going to lie about MIT at least check your facts. From the MIT website:
“Unlike many other schools, MIT does not send “likely letters” or do “signings,” nor do our coaches have discretionary “slots” which they may fill. Prospective athletes to MIT are subject to the same rigorous, academically-focused admissions process as all other applicants.”
Amazingly, your top 5% of a top private student majoring in math didn’t bother to apply to the #3 school in math (Berkeley) and turned down the #1 school (MIT) because of bad fit.
You have zero credibility.
Again you're an idiot but I'll help out. She is targeting Finance and UCB isn't particularly great for IB. They send a decent number but on a per capita basis there are many better schools. Same for MIT though I think in their case it is that the students just aren't that interested in Wall Street. Clubs are also a mess and your recruiting process doesn't have the same level of Alumni help. She also wouldn't have been able to play her sport at UCB and athletics is a huge hook for banking, especially during the recruiting process.
Finally as has been well covered in this thread undergrad at UCB is a shitty experience with large classes and little support which is the exact opposite of what she gets now.
You’re such a clown! Berkeley and MIT rank 5 and 6 in Finance which btw is different from investment banking which is not really a discipline, it’s an industry.
Nobody gives a hoot about clubs. You want to build a network, go to a school in a financial or tech node, like New York, Bay Area and Boston and use every summer for an internship to get your foot in the door.
Alumni networking is marginally useful but doesn’t compare to people you actually worked with.
DP but it's pretty clear PP knows IB is not a discipline. And I can confirm Berkeley is a bit of a Thunderdome for finance outcomes. Competition starts freshman year with recruitment into the top clubs/frats (yes it does matter) which often make tremendous demands on students time even as freshmen. Look at Delta Sigma Phi as an example of how bad it can get. The sad part is that their alumni actually did/do very well in IB, so for some members it was worth the hazing. If you want to go to a school where simply getting in is sufficient for IB, Berkeley is not the place.
No, it doesn’t. It’s a complete waste of time. A bunch of undergrads make a club and go to companies asking about internships making themselves more important than they are. They take for themselves anything that is good anyways. Just go straight to a professor, university career office, job fairs (many companies have presence at large universities like Berkeley) or spam companies on your own instead. Most investment banking is in NY, Bay Area is known for venture capital.
I disagree, if your assertion is correct why do athletes have huge advantages in IB placement? Especially from the NE schools (Ivies and NESCAC) for spots on both coasts. CMC athletes also do very well.
There's actually now special internships and recruitment done for athletes for investment banking. The culture in IB sucks.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after prIvate schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
+1
Posters: Berkeley is a great school and all, especially in-state, but not Ivy quality.
Response: How dare you bash this school!
Someone said it is comparable to UVA however the overall experience is probably better at UVA. This sounds right.
If you care about a specific academic department ranking above all else, then we are happy for you to attend Berkeley.
This is so subjective. A lot of kids like the East Bay and SF and would much prefer to go to school there over UVA. My son probably wouldn't have gotten into either, but he never would have considered UVA, even if he was a good candidate.
I agree that the location makes Berkeley more appealing to some. My kids applied to Berkeley OOS but did not apply to UVA.
Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.
“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.
“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?
lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.
Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!
You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.
No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.
State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.
Just so you know, opinions about Berkeley in California are probably as polarizing, if not more so, than OOS. We are more familiar with many issues related to housing, class availability and toxic competition. It isn’t romanticized. I know 2 kids from my son’s class who got accepted to Berkeley and then got off the waitlist for UCLA and will go there instead. It is a great fit for some but not others.
Polarizing not for Cal's status as public, but because of the reasons you mentioned and the fact that it has been destination for strange people.
Who are those strange people? UC’s still end up having strong undergrad programs. It’s fine if you don’t like the culture or student life and decide something else is better for you.
At our good CA public high school about 30% of all students apply to Berkeley, and 3% get admitted (10-15), the numbers are similar for UCLA. That’s in line with the admission rate of about 10% for both Cal and UCLA. They are top students, the admission is very competitive.
HYPSM admission rate is about 5%, so they are more competitive, although some programs at Berkeley like MET (dual engineering and business degree) have admission rates below 3%. For comparison UVA admission rate is 17%.
The truth is plenty of students want to go to Berkeley in and out of state.
This looks about right for good CA public schools. It also holds for most good privates as well with acceptances in line with the overall average for UCLA and UCB.
In my experience there is a difference between public and private in terms of who attends UCB. At most of the top bay area privates the very top students do not covet (or attend UCB or UCLA). They mostly target top privates as their first choice. My top 5% kid did this as well with no interest in attending UCB based on her experience living in the bay area and knowing who went from her school. The school CCs actually ask the very top kids not to apply to UCLA and UCB unless they are actually interested in attending because the acceptance rates never vary by more than a kid or two. The UCs seem to be much more attractive to top public school kids.
That makes a lot of sense. If you pay $50k a year in tuition at a private high school you’re not going to blink at $60k tuition at Stanford, if you’re competitive enough to be admitted. But all these schools are more or less lottery tickets, and it’s conceivable that most applicants, top 5% included, will not get in HYPSM. The admission strategy may or may not include Berkeley, but a decent number go there. For College Preparatory, an “elite” private high school in the Bay Area, Berkeley is the third most attended university after Chicago and Swarthmore. The attended universities list skews private, but again we’re talking people that are not concerned with cost. Either way Berkeley is there in the mix with Ivies, LACs, etc. I don’t know a single person that would look down at Cal as not worthy enough.
Not sure I understand the comment about knowing who went to Berkeley from her high school. Is it that she doesn’t want to mix with the poor, the nerdy, or the strivers? Seems kind of shallow to me.
I give credit to UC admissions, they do identify the top students, that can be clearly seen in my kids schools SCOIR data. Quite a few kids do go to UCB from her school every year but the very top students for the most part (some exceptions of course) do not consider UCB as a top choice. It's not looking down on UCB, it's the environment (which has been well covered) along with the crazy admissions process for the top UCs. There is also a very clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB among the top students at our school.
I'm not sure why you would insinuate that my child is shallow because she wasn't interested in UCB? Seems pretty shallow to me, especially since you know nothing about her except that she was in the top 5% of her class at a top Bay area private.
I’m saying you and your kid are shallow for discarding Berkeley because of “knowing who went from her school”. Your words, not mine, but please elaborate what you mean by that. Is it the “clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB”? You’re not helping your cause, it’s probably better for everyone she’s not interested in Berkeley.
Your logic is quite faulty, if “quite a few students go to Berkeley every year,” then that’s a good compromise between where they want to go and where they can get in. I doubt you have the insight to tell if they are top students or not, unless you have unrestricted access to their application. More likely you base your evaluation on what your daughter tells you, which I hope you realize it’s not a very reliable way to tell top students apart.
My kid isn't shallow, you are an idiot. The fact that the majority of kids from her school who want to attend UCB are Asian is what it is, a simple fact and nothing else. They are also Engineering/CS grinds to help clarify things for you.
Of course she knows who the top students are, every kid does because they take the same classes together. You might not know the quality of somebodies essays but if you think that your kid cannot tell you who the top students are you are delusional. They also get notified if they are ELC so the top 9% is obvious and there is an award for the top 5% so they all know that as well.
My kids didn't want to attend UCB because she fully understands the 'experience' because she has friends there and she wanted a better learning environment since she sees, hears about, and understands some of the challenges that go with attending UCB. She also didn't want to attend because she very smart but not pointy and most of the kids who really want to attend from her school are CS and engineering oriented kids who she doesn't really connect with in her closest friend group. She also had plenty of other choices so why choose something that doesn't fit your needs?
Finally, since you want to imply racism I will point out that she is half-Asian and looks Asian. So please take your implied racist rhetoric and wander off.
Ok, let’s assume that when your said your kid didn’t want to apply to Berkeley “knowing who went from her school” she was referring to not fitting the mold of grindy, pointy, engineering/CS type Asian kids. Of course the stereotyping is not racist because she looks Asian and it’s just a simple fact and nothing else.
Curious where your top 5% student from a top private in the Bay Area ended up and in what major. I bet it’s not HYPSM because you’d have mentioned it multiple times by now.
Why would I have mentioned it? The conversation wasn't about my kid, it's about UCB. But since you ask I'll give you a bit but not too much since I don't want to dox her.
She's a Math major and she didn't go to HYPSM. She, did turn down MIT again because of fit and she ended up at a top SLAC in the end. And, before you go off the handle and say something foolish like 'no way she got into MIT' she was a recruited athlete.
No sure how that added to the UCB conversation but if it makes you feel better.
You brought your kid into the conversation. Specifically as a top 5% student from a top private that wouldn’t even consider Berkeley.
If you’re going to lie about MIT at least check your facts. From the MIT website:
“Unlike many other schools, MIT does not send “likely letters” or do “signings,” nor do our coaches have discretionary “slots” which they may fill. Prospective athletes to MIT are subject to the same rigorous, academically-focused admissions process as all other applicants.”
Amazingly, your top 5% of a top private student majoring in math didn’t bother to apply to the #3 school in math (Berkeley) and turned down the #1 school (MIT) because of bad fit.
You have zero credibility.
Again you're an idiot but I'll help out. She is targeting Finance and UCB isn't particularly great for IB. They send a decent number but on a per capita basis there are many better schools. Same for MIT though I think in their case it is that the students just aren't that interested in Wall Street. Clubs are also a mess and your recruiting process doesn't have the same level of Alumni help. She also wouldn't have been able to play her sport at UCB and athletics is a huge hook for banking, especially during the recruiting process.
Finally as has been well covered in this thread undergrad at UCB is a shitty experience with large classes and little support which is the exact opposite of what she gets now.
You’re such a clown! Berkeley and MIT rank 5 and 6 in Finance which btw is different from investment banking which is not really a discipline, it’s an industry.
Nobody gives a hoot about clubs. You want to build a network, go to a school in a financial or tech node, like New York, Bay Area and Boston and use every summer for an internship to get your foot in the door.
Alumni networking is marginally useful but doesn’t compare to people you actually worked with.
DP but it's pretty clear PP knows IB is not a discipline. And I can confirm Berkeley is a bit of a Thunderdome for finance outcomes. Competition starts freshman year with recruitment into the top clubs/frats (yes it does matter) which often make tremendous demands on students time even as freshmen. Look at Delta Sigma Phi as an example of how bad it can get. The sad part is that their alumni actually did/do very well in IB, so for some members it was worth the hazing. If you want to go to a school where simply getting in is sufficient for IB, Berkeley is not the place.
No, it doesn’t. It’s a complete waste of time. A bunch of undergrads make a club and go to companies asking about internships making themselves more important than they are. They take for themselves anything that is good anyways. Just go straight to a professor, university career office, job fairs (many companies have presence at large universities like Berkeley) or spam companies on your own instead. Most investment banking is in NY, Bay Area is known for venture capital.
I disagree, if your assertion is correct why do athletes have huge advantages in IB placement? Especially from the NE schools (Ivies and NESCAC) for spots on both coasts. CMC athletes also do very well.
They don’t, the athletes in IB thing is a shadow of what it once was. This is mostly anecdotal these days and a small percentage of the total hires.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after private schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
You have the same choices. Most kids at Buffalo and Stony Brook get the same education that they would receive at UCB. You don't get the weather and you need to work harder for internships but as far as the actual education goes you're all set. I am in the Bay area and I know multiple families with kids at Stony Brook and Bing, choosing them over UCs.
Unless its Riverside or Merced I cannot fathom anyone choosing SB or Bing over other UC. But if they are, it makes me happy because its a good sign. Both those NY schools are good schools.
Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.
“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.
“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?
lol, are you for real? Poor Berkeley students attending some of best programs in the country when they could have gone straight to UVA.
Mind boggling how complete ignoramuses imagine themselves seers of wisdom!
You are cherry picking rankings to make Berkeley look better than it is.
No question the undergrad experience at UVA is better than Berkeley.
State flagships tend to have an inflated reputation in their home state. Are you living in California? The rest of the country barely thinks about Berkeley at all. You are out of touch with reality.
Just so you know, opinions about Berkeley in California are probably as polarizing, if not more so, than OOS. We are more familiar with many issues related to housing, class availability and toxic competition. It isn’t romanticized. I know 2 kids from my son’s class who got accepted to Berkeley and then got off the waitlist for UCLA and will go there instead. It is a great fit for some but not others.
Polarizing not for Cal's status as public, but because of the reasons you mentioned and the fact that it has been destination for strange people.
Who are those strange people? UC’s still end up having strong undergrad programs. It’s fine if you don’t like the culture or student life and decide something else is better for you.
At our good CA public high school about 30% of all students apply to Berkeley, and 3% get admitted (10-15), the numbers are similar for UCLA. That’s in line with the admission rate of about 10% for both Cal and UCLA. They are top students, the admission is very competitive.
HYPSM admission rate is about 5%, so they are more competitive, although some programs at Berkeley like MET (dual engineering and business degree) have admission rates below 3%. For comparison UVA admission rate is 17%.
The truth is plenty of students want to go to Berkeley in and out of state.
This looks about right for good CA public schools. It also holds for most good privates as well with acceptances in line with the overall average for UCLA and UCB.
In my experience there is a difference between public and private in terms of who attends UCB. At most of the top bay area privates the very top students do not covet (or attend UCB or UCLA). They mostly target top privates as their first choice. My top 5% kid did this as well with no interest in attending UCB based on her experience living in the bay area and knowing who went from her school. The school CCs actually ask the very top kids not to apply to UCLA and UCB unless they are actually interested in attending because the acceptance rates never vary by more than a kid or two. The UCs seem to be much more attractive to top public school kids.
That makes a lot of sense. If you pay $50k a year in tuition at a private high school you’re not going to blink at $60k tuition at Stanford, if you’re competitive enough to be admitted. But all these schools are more or less lottery tickets, and it’s conceivable that most applicants, top 5% included, will not get in HYPSM. The admission strategy may or may not include Berkeley, but a decent number go there. For College Preparatory, an “elite” private high school in the Bay Area, Berkeley is the third most attended university after Chicago and Swarthmore. The attended universities list skews private, but again we’re talking people that are not concerned with cost. Either way Berkeley is there in the mix with Ivies, LACs, etc. I don’t know a single person that would look down at Cal as not worthy enough.
Not sure I understand the comment about knowing who went to Berkeley from her high school. Is it that she doesn’t want to mix with the poor, the nerdy, or the strivers? Seems kind of shallow to me.
I give credit to UC admissions, they do identify the top students, that can be clearly seen in my kids schools SCOIR data. Quite a few kids do go to UCB from her school every year but the very top students for the most part (some exceptions of course) do not consider UCB as a top choice. It's not looking down on UCB, it's the environment (which has been well covered) along with the crazy admissions process for the top UCs. There is also a very clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB among the top students at our school.
I'm not sure why you would insinuate that my child is shallow because she wasn't interested in UCB? Seems pretty shallow to me, especially since you know nothing about her except that she was in the top 5% of her class at a top Bay area private.
I’m saying you and your kid are shallow for discarding Berkeley because of “knowing who went from her school”. Your words, not mine, but please elaborate what you mean by that. Is it the “clear racial dimension in who chooses UCB”? You’re not helping your cause, it’s probably better for everyone she’s not interested in Berkeley.
Your logic is quite faulty, if “quite a few students go to Berkeley every year,” then that’s a good compromise between where they want to go and where they can get in. I doubt you have the insight to tell if they are top students or not, unless you have unrestricted access to their application. More likely you base your evaluation on what your daughter tells you, which I hope you realize it’s not a very reliable way to tell top students apart.
My kid isn't shallow, you are an idiot. The fact that the majority of kids from her school who want to attend UCB are Asian is what it is, a simple fact and nothing else. They are also Engineering/CS grinds to help clarify things for you.
Of course she knows who the top students are, every kid does because they take the same classes together. You might not know the quality of somebodies essays but if you think that your kid cannot tell you who the top students are you are delusional. They also get notified if they are ELC so the top 9% is obvious and there is an award for the top 5% so they all know that as well.
My kids didn't want to attend UCB because she fully understands the 'experience' because she has friends there and she wanted a better learning environment since she sees, hears about, and understands some of the challenges that go with attending UCB. She also didn't want to attend because she very smart but not pointy and most of the kids who really want to attend from her school are CS and engineering oriented kids who she doesn't really connect with in her closest friend group. She also had plenty of other choices so why choose something that doesn't fit your needs?
Finally, since you want to imply racism I will point out that she is half-Asian and looks Asian. So please take your implied racist rhetoric and wander off.
Ok, let’s assume that when your said your kid didn’t want to apply to Berkeley “knowing who went from her school” she was referring to not fitting the mold of grindy, pointy, engineering/CS type Asian kids. Of course the stereotyping is not racist because she looks Asian and it’s just a simple fact and nothing else.
Curious where your top 5% student from a top private in the Bay Area ended up and in what major. I bet it’s not HYPSM because you’d have mentioned it multiple times by now.
Why would I have mentioned it? The conversation wasn't about my kid, it's about UCB. But since you ask I'll give you a bit but not too much since I don't want to dox her.
She's a Math major and she didn't go to HYPSM. She, did turn down MIT again because of fit and she ended up at a top SLAC in the end. And, before you go off the handle and say something foolish like 'no way she got into MIT' she was a recruited athlete.
No sure how that added to the UCB conversation but if it makes you feel better.
You brought your kid into the conversation. Specifically as a top 5% student from a top private that wouldn’t even consider Berkeley.
If you’re going to lie about MIT at least check your facts. From the MIT website:
“Unlike many other schools, MIT does not send “likely letters” or do “signings,” nor do our coaches have discretionary “slots” which they may fill. Prospective athletes to MIT are subject to the same rigorous, academically-focused admissions process as all other applicants.”
Amazingly, your top 5% of a top private student majoring in math didn’t bother to apply to the #3 school in math (Berkeley) and turned down the #1 school (MIT) because of bad fit.
You have zero credibility.
Again you're an idiot but I'll help out. She is targeting Finance and UCB isn't particularly great for IB. They send a decent number but on a per capita basis there are many better schools. Same for MIT though I think in their case it is that the students just aren't that interested in Wall Street. Clubs are also a mess and your recruiting process doesn't have the same level of Alumni help. She also wouldn't have been able to play her sport at UCB and athletics is a huge hook for banking, especially during the recruiting process.
Finally as has been well covered in this thread undergrad at UCB is a shitty experience with large classes and little support which is the exact opposite of what she gets now.
You’re such a clown! Berkeley and MIT rank 5 and 6 in Finance which btw is different from investment banking which is not really a discipline, it’s an industry.
Nobody gives a hoot about clubs. You want to build a network, go to a school in a financial or tech node, like New York, Bay Area and Boston and use every summer for an internship to get your foot in the door.
Alumni networking is marginally useful but doesn’t compare to people you actually worked with.
DP but it's pretty clear PP knows IB is not a discipline. And I can confirm Berkeley is a bit of a Thunderdome for finance outcomes. Competition starts freshman year with recruitment into the top clubs/frats (yes it does matter) which often make tremendous demands on students time even as freshmen. Look at Delta Sigma Phi as an example of how bad it can get. The sad part is that their alumni actually did/do very well in IB, so for some members it was worth the hazing. If you want to go to a school where simply getting in is sufficient for IB, Berkeley is not the place.
No, it doesn’t. It’s a complete waste of time. A bunch of undergrads make a club and go to companies asking about internships making themselves more important than they are. They take for themselves anything that is good anyways. Just go straight to a professor, university career office, job fairs (many companies have presence at large universities like Berkeley) or spam companies on your own instead. Most investment banking is in NY, Bay Area is known for venture capital.
I disagree, if your assertion is correct why do athletes have huge advantages in IB placement? Especially from the NE schools (Ivies and NESCAC) for spots on both coasts. CMC athletes also do very well.
They don’t, the athletes in IB thing is a shadow of what it once was. This is mostly anecdotal these days and a small percentage of the total hires.
I'll take your word for it but your experience is different than mine. Almost all of the kids that I know who have had or are having good banking results are athletes. Most of them are women as well. They aren't all from Eastern schools though, a couple are at Chicago and one at CMC as well as the usual Ivy and NESCAC schools.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after private schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
You have the same choices. Most kids at Buffalo and Stony Brook get the same education that they would receive at UCB. You don't get the weather and you need to work harder for internships but as far as the actual education goes you're all set. I am in the Bay area and I know multiple families with kids at Stony Brook and Bing, choosing them over UCs.
Unless its Riverside or Merced I cannot fathom anyone choosing SB or Bing over other UC. But if they are, it makes me happy because its a good sign. Both those NY schools are good schools.
The top SUNY schools are underrated. They are a really good value relative to many others.
Anonymous wrote:Many of my friend's kids go to sought after prIvate schools in CA and they would love for their kids to go to UCB. Unlike the PP, they say other than a handful of schools they would rather pay instate. Yes, its a big school but CA seems to have amazing options from UCs, CSU, and CC. I wish NY had such choices. There is no need to bash or look down on a school that consistently shows up in top 20 in most rankings, has great brand recognition, is in top 5 for most majors, is diverse and serves the people of its state well.
+1
Posters: Berkeley is a great school and all, especially in-state, but not Ivy quality.
Response: How dare you bash this school!
Someone said it is comparable to UVA however the overall experience is probably better at UVA. This sounds right.
If you care about a specific academic department ranking above all else, then we are happy for you to attend Berkeley.
In trying to make an assessment of a school it’s very difficult to evaluate things like “experience”. Do you survey the undergrads, rely on your niece etc, tell apart fact from fiction etc.
At least department rankings have a better semblance of objective measures and capture how the industry sees the school.
In my view that’s better correlated with professional success than experience, but to each their own.
There is nothing subjective about class availability, number of students in lectures, size of small groups with faculty teaching, guaranteed on-campus housing, endowment size, amount of money the university spends per student, on-campus recruiting, average salary and employment after graduation.
For a lot of students choosing Berkeley, the most attractive aspect is access to working on cutting edge research because that can translate into a great job at the companies that will eventually commercialize the research which is a huge advantage in the job market. By this metric Berkeley is absolutely on par with HYPSM. You don’t get that at UVA, SLACS etc. Year it’s more grindy, and classes are big, but in the end you’re putting up with it. I don’t care that the physics recitation has one TA for 10 students and they explain the problem set three times if you need to, I care about working on gene therapy while in undergrad so I can get an internship at the startup that will be bought by Pfizer.
You are kidding yourself if you think that is common. Undergraduates are virtually useless in labs. They don't know anything and they get in the way of the graduate students actually doing the work. Berkely is absolutely one of the best graduate schools but it's not where I would want to be if I was a remotely typical student.
It’s not that rare. At least there’s research money and projects to tag along. I’ve seen very motivated undergrads do well.
Your argument is the same at HYPSM, undergraduates are useless and no big shot professor will pay attention to them. But if it’s a large university, with lots of research going on you might still find the Associate professor, postdoc or grad student to help find a project suitable for an undergrad.
When I was a graduate student then a postdoc years ago, every time I would be really annoyed when the advisor assigned an undergraduate to me. It's a liability. Was at Cal.
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