I don’t get it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People chase after anything perceived as the best or prestige VIP. It’s why we have idiots driving recalled Cybertrucks

This.

It’s the insecure/brand-chasing parents. They want to brag and keep up with the Joneses.

Agree that I’d give a closer look to the resume of a state school grad with excellent internships over a top name school kid.

-An HYP grad

You know who gets all the excellent internships?
Go on, guess.

Precisely!

Anyone else get irritated when HYP grads come here and tell us that it really doesn’t matter where your kid goes to school!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People chase after anything perceived as the best or prestige VIP. It’s why we have idiots driving recalled Cybertrucks

This.

It’s the insecure/brand-chasing parents. They want to brag and keep up with the Joneses.

Agree that I’d give a closer look to the resume of a state school grad with excellent internships over a top name school kid.

-An HYP grad

What if the top name school kid has excellent internships too and you can only select one for an interview?

I’m the alum to whom you responded. To answer your question, literally has never happened. There is always enough variation that the school brand has never tipped the balance. And people are not their resumes. Some resumes look stellar and do not match the person in front of you when you interview them.

And agree with the poster who said writing and analytical skills are key. And being a team player. And social skills (reading the room, etc.).

And I haven’t seen anyone care about where I went to school. If they ask, I’ll respond, but otherwise, whatever.

DP.

That's weird because I don't see that much variety in resumes.
I interview law students so maybe it's a bit different but...
If I see Fordham on a resume, I can reliably expect an otherwise impressive resume.
The Columbia/NYU resumes are much more variable.
The mediocre Fordham kids get filtered out.

You are looking for people to do actual work for you and the kids that have been academically successful are more likely to be the hard working capable employees.
They will tend to learn faster.
They will be used to hard work.
They will be used to operating at high levels for longer periods of time.
Sure there are kids at other schools like that too but you are really skimming the cream off of places like Fordham while you can almost pick kids from the top half of Columbia at random and expect decent results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Let's be honest.. if you have an applicant from MIT and one from UMD, you would look at the MIT applicant first.”
+1

Also that there are a few schools where if you tell people you went there it automatically communicates “very smart”: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT.

In my view the differentiation after that tippy top signaling school group is not that huge but yes there are bands of perceived “smartness” associated with other schools too like UVA signals smarter than GMU or VCU on a resume. Now maybe the kid from the latter two interviews great and is actually smarter and able to do a better job. But in a pile of resumes with kids from all 3 schools thr UVA one is likely to get a closer look.

But everyone knows from their own experiences and from the experiences of their children, that the smartest kids in the class are often NOT the ones who go to those schools. Not saying there aren't obviously smart kids at all of them, but the truth is the fist person you think of when you hear a given school's name is the not-smart person you know who went there.

That is absolutely true. Yet still when I meet someone and I hear they went to Yale for example I think “oh, smart!” Absolutely other schools have smart kids too. I did not go to an Ivy and think I’m decently smart. But Ivy degree is shorthand for “smart” still as a general rule.

This is why people like Trump and Bush went to Ivies. To make dumb people assume they are smart.

Horrible people are not necessarily dumb people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

None of this is true. And I say this as someone who went to aT10 college and T5 law school. Further the advantage of going to a T15 school, to the extent it exists, has been weakened as current admissions policies break down the strength of alumni networks.

How can you know if you've never been to a school outside the top 75?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP there's a lot of talk about prestige and bragging rights but it goes beyond that. You're aware of Oxford, Cambridge, The Sorbonne, university of Bologna etc?

What do you think comes of attending those? You are surrounded by the "best minds" and you make connections with those people, you form a creative or business network that you carry with you out into the world.

I have a friend who attended Harvard and never mentions it, avoids it if possible. Yet her network of friends and colleagues who she met there still exist and they are all doing extraordinarily well and can occasionally help each other out.

Is this unique to Harvard though? You get that at a lot of schools. I mean Penn State is supposed to have an amazing alumni network.

Well if you'd read what I wrote I mentioned other colleges, Oxford, The Sorbonne etc. I only site Harvard because that's where my particular friend attended. You really need to pay more attention. I'm sure Penn State does have an amazing network of car salesmen and pharmaceutical reps.

You're taking pot shots but let's analyze it a little deeper.

Penn State actually claims it is the #2 producer of CEOs.

https://invent.psu.edu/stories/penn-state-is-the-no-2-school-for-graduating-ceos/#:~:text=The%20only%20school%20rated%20higher,on%20the%20list%20was%20Berkeley.

According to DCUM, NYC firms now recruit at Penn State's business school. I do believe the parents here are telling the truth about how it is now. Wasn't always the case.

CEOs have to navigate through relationships with a lot of different types of people to get ahead. And a lot of people hate snobs, are insecure, or have other issues with elites. State school people start out with a school brand that doesn't alienate...that can be a positional advantage.

The American impulse is generally anti-intellectual AND tends towards giving non-elites a chance to compete. I'd bet on the staying power of those trends. The trends and volume of grads favor state schools.

Penn State sends some kids to NYC, but a school like UPenn with 1/4 the students sends 5x that of Penn State if you look at Peak Frameworks that tracks placements for banking, and Penn State doesn’t even rank at all for private equity.

Perhaps it’s a mistake…but if certain schools are sending a fairly large percentage to banking, PE, hedge funds, investment managers, etc…well that means they aren’t going the F500 route (except for tech).

PP. You are correct. CEO track is different than Finance. I mention this type of job mainly because it is a different kind of "big money" job that people aspire to, one that state flagships do pretty well at producing since big corporations are more scattered aross America than high finance. And the previous poster was implying PSU's network was full of poors. (Incidentally some pharma reps make really good money in areas where extremely high paying jobs are less common...so that's kind of a stupid remark right there. So do car dealers (not the sales reps) - car dealer families are usually among the richest families in small town America. Easily multi-millionnaire level.)

I respect people who build and manage things more than people who are crafty intermediaries, skimmers, and seizers of momentary advantages during financial panics and the like. I have been peripherally involved with high finance types as an MBA (at school and at work). It seems like it does require a kind of mental aptitude that is athlete-like. Which can be impressive to see up close. However, it also requires a focus on the almighty dollar that is somewhat antithetical to human relationships and a high quality life. Kind of cheaply summed up in "He who dies with the most toys wins". You'd never find me wearing a shirt like that. At several times in life, I've been told that I was not greedy enough to be considered for a specific business job. Interviewers have literally told me this - I did not have enough recognizable wants to make it believable that I would do the job well even though I felt my application meant I was sincerely interested. I found that amazing, and I thanked them for the feedback and walked away at peace. Because it's true. Good pay is a measure of respect to me, and something I value, but it's way down the list of what I need and want out of a job. So, to me a lot of Finance comes across as competitive and greedy to the point where people revel in it - it's actually exciting to them.

I talked a little about what I've read about finance and PSU because indeed, going to Wall Street is one of the main reasons to go Ivy (to go to Penn vs. PSU). I actually had both of those in mind, as well as Wall Street, at different points in my life and walked away from all of these as options after careful consideration of my goals, priorities, and desire for intellectual fulfillment vs. lifetime total $ accumulation. I have zero regrets but am still interested in general business news and how institutions change over time.

What I see happening, actually, is that the big finance employers are less cool in the age of "hit it big" tech startups. So they have to go a bit further afield to find sufficient new grad supply. They have always had an up or out talent model (as does consulting). So they need to keep feeding the machine. I think it's actually kind of a form of "asset stripping" to rob young grads of so much of their free time and happiness in their 20s.

The up or out model is really just a selection device that over-eliminates in the hopes that you end up with more concsstently quality at the end of the process.

Less than 5% of my entering class survived to make partner. I think we lost a lot of great lawyers but the there were no duds that survived the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

The Penn State kids had to work far harder to get there, and them being there is a lucky break. The Ivy kids had a much easier time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a drop in dignity and respect given once your kid goes to a uni ranked beyond around #70 that I have witnessed. People don't say anything, of course, but behind others backs they judge. For LACs it's a lot less clear cut, I think, since many people don't know LACs as well.

That says a lot about you and the people you hang out with.

It's something I've witnessed in many circles with many different types of people.

This only exists in the addled brains of the privileged DCUM types. Nobody else who matters (in the actual working world) cares. I’m 20 years out from an Ivy degree and literally nobody ever asks. I don’t recruit young people but if I did, I can tell you that there is one thing I would look at: writing and analytical skills. That can be gained anywhere and I certainly would not presume it can only be learned at a T20.

Writing and analytical skills have dropped off a cliff. They don’t even write many papers at most public schools anymore. We were told there are too many papers to grade. The schools kids develop good writing skills are predominantly private or Catholic schools. My kid is at an Ivy and his hand was stained blue from his 4 hour written final in one course. He did not have a single multiple choice exam.

What on earth are you talking about? My kids have attended public k-12s and are now attending in-state universities. They have had excellent writing instruction at all of their schools. The liberal arts/humanities majors have to turn in many pages of essays in lieu of exams - certainly nothing multiple choice. That they type those essays on a computer doesn't make them any less demanding or arduous than writing them by hand.
DP

Historically, private schools produce better writers than public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, that’s about it.

And, unfortunately, it’s starting when kids are at a young age. Exhibit A is the Advanced Academic Program (AAP) forum. It’s a program in Fairfax County Public Schools. There has to be separate forum there because there are so many parents posting scores of their 7-8 year olds and attempting to get into a program. There are perfectly fine classes in their neighborhood schools that are meeting their kid’s needs, but they’re jockeying for this program because they think it gives them a leg up. In the end, it doesn’t really matter. They all end up at the same high school with the same access to honors, IB and AP classes.

The parents are not okay.

+100
AAP is everything that's wrong with this area. Labeling kids this or that at the end of 2nd grade is absolutely absurd.

AAP is the only thing that's right. It's a preview of what is to come in college admissions. The top 10% go this way, the bottom 90% go the other.

"The top 10%" is laughable. No one knows who the top kids will be until high school. AAP is just a bunch of average/above average kids who are often eclipsed by their "normal" peers in high school - not to mention college. Offer advanced classes, sure. But to *everyone*.

For my DC, the best school I know any of their non-AAP in elementary and middle friends got into is GW. Best for AAP was Harvard.

AAp is a low bar but it is a bar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People chase after anything perceived as the best or prestige VIP. It’s why we have idiots driving recalled Cybertrucks

This.

It’s the insecure/brand-chasing parents. They want to brag and keep up with the Joneses.

Agree that I’d give a closer look to the resume of a state school grad with excellent internships over a top name school kid.

-An HYP grad

What if the top name school kid has excellent internships too and you can only select one for an interview?

I’m the alum to whom you responded. To answer your question, literally has never happened. There is always enough variation that the school brand has never tipped the balance. And people are not their resumes. Some resumes look stellar and do not match the person in front of you when you interview them.

And agree with the poster who said writing and analytical skills are key. And being a team player. And social skills (reading the room, etc.).

And I haven’t seen anyone care about where I went to school. If they ask, I’ll respond, but otherwise, whatever.

DP.

That's weird because I don't see that much variety in resumes.
I interview law students so maybe it's a bit different but...
If I see Fordham on a resume, I can reliably expect an otherwise impressive resume.
The Columbia/NYU resumes are much more variable.
The mediocre Fordham kids get filtered out.

You are looking for people to do actual work for you and the kids that have been academically successful are more likely to be the hard working capable employees.
They will tend to learn faster.
They will be used to hard work.
They will be used to operating at high levels for longer periods of time.
Sure there are kids at other schools like that too but you are really skimming the cream off of places like Fordham while you can almost pick kids from the top half of Columbia at random and expect decent results.

Plenty of excellent Fordham kids also get filtered out, but you don't see that. No one wants that for their excellent kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All of your points are correct but you’ll never convince the high anxiety, status-chasing people here so best of luck with this post.

+1

Those who are obsessed with that school's name want to live with a sense of superiority. They believe that the school's name will make this possible.

[Anonymous]

Many ivy grads who land in jobs in the heartland could tell you that they would have fared better being part of the resident state-flagship mafia than being viewed as elitist interlopers with a fancy degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

None of this is true. And I say this as someone who went to aT10 college and T5 law school. Further the advantage of going to a T15 school, to the extent it exists, has been weakened as current admissions policies break down the strength of alumni networks.

PP here

Then you did not go to a T10 school or T5 law school.
The on campus recruiting is much much better at these schools.
The peer group is noticably different between harvard or yale vs penn state or miami
Your peer group definitely affects the pace and depth of your education
There are industries (pretty much any high paying non-stem industry) where academic pedigree matters.

What policies are breaking down the strength of alumni networks?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

The Penn State kids had to work far harder to get there, and them being there is a lucky break. The Ivy kids had a much easier time.

The kids who got into HYPSM just go their lucky break earlier.