I don’t get it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no interest in those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a kid at UMD majoring in CS. DC is an academic superstar, always has been since they were 3 (gifted program, magnet programs, etc). But, they got shut out of the T15, though UMD is T20 for CS.

The reason why parents want their kids to go to more prestigious schools is because of internship/employment recruiting. While I agree that where you went to school won't matter after working for 5 years, where you go matters to open that first door. The top paying employers recruit mostly from certain schools. It's harder to get recruited to those companies from the lesser tier schools.

I went to a no name u here in the states, and while I did eventually work my way up to a very well known prestigious company, it took me a lot longer to get there than my colleagues at work who went to a big name u.

But, I agree, as my experience has shown me, a really smart, motivated person can do well in life no matter where they go. It will just take them longer.

Parents just want their kids to get there faster if they can.

DC has an internship this summer with a well known company. They had to really hustle last year to get to that stepping stone, but it was their smarts and personality that got them there.

Let's be honest.. if you have an applicant from MIT and one from UMD, you would look at the MIT applicant first.

I'd look at the Maryland one first, because I'm a Terp myself. Prestige is one factor. Network is another. To take one of the earlier examples -- PSU has the most active alums of any college in the states, and most of them try to look after their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

None of this is true. And I say this as someone who went to aT10 college and T5 law school. Further the advantage of going to a T15 school, to the extent it exists, has been weakened as current admissions policies break down the strength of alumni networks.

This is a really good point. Alums get pissed when their kids don’t get into their alma mater. It creates a lot of ill will and definitely diminishes the strength of the alumni network.

Not really.
The alumni networking doesn't really work that way.
Detaching yourself from the network doesn't punish your alma mater, it punishes you.
Anyone that actually uses their alumni network (and very few do), realize this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People chase after anything perceived as the best or prestige VIP. It’s why we have idiots driving recalled Cybertrucks

This.

It’s the insecure/brand-chasing parents. They want to brag and keep up with the Joneses.

Agree that I’d give a closer look to the resume of a state school grad with excellent internships over a top name school kid.

-An HYP grad

What if the top name school kid has excellent internships too and you can only select one for an interview?

I’m the alum to whom you responded. To answer your question, literally has never happened. There is always enough variation that the school brand has never tipped the balance. And people are not their resumes. Some resumes look stellar and do not match the person in front of you when you interview them.

And agree with the poster who said writing and analytical skills are key. And being a team player. And social skills (reading the room, etc.).

And I haven’t seen anyone care about where I went to school. If they ask, I’ll respond, but otherwise, whatever.

DP.

That's weird because I don't see that much variety in resumes.
I interview law students so maybe it's a bit different but...
If I see Fordham on a resume, I can reliably expect an otherwise impressive resume.
The Columbia/NYU resumes are much more variable.
The mediocre Fordham kids get filtered out.

You are looking for people to do actual work for you and the kids that have been academically successful are more likely to be the hard working capable employees.
They will tend to learn faster.
They will be used to hard work.
They will be used to operating at high levels for longer periods of time.
Sure there are kids at other schools like that too but you are really skimming the cream off of places like Fordham while you can almost pick kids from the top half of Columbia at random and expect decent results.

Plenty of excellent Fordham kids also get filtered out, but you don't see that. No one wants that for their excellent kids

PP here.

Yes a lot of excellent fordham kids get filtered out because there is a very fine HEPA filter (let's call it human resources) between Fordham and the pile of resumes that end up in my inbox while there is a chain link fence separating Columbia students from that same pile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

The Penn State kids had to work far harder to get there, and them being there is a lucky break. The Ivy kids had a much easier time.

The kids who got into HYPSM just go their lucky break earlier.

The difference between HYPSM and Penn State is not a "lucky break" There is a lot of blood sweat and tears that went into that differential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ chance at those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

FIFY

[Anonymous]

So much of this discussion is so ridiculously narrowly focused on a single model of 'success' that very few people want or aim for -- that Harvard to "top internship" to high paying "consulting job." If you offered whatever version of that is in your head to any kid in my extended family right now, particularly the actual geniuses, they would laugh at you. They have their own goal and vision of happiness and success, and they have achieved it from many different colleges where they were also happy and successful.

Also, thinking about the up or out model a few posters mention, particularly in law (which I know best as a former partner on a hiring committee), what you see more often than those who "don't make it" are those who self-opt-out. They were taught that success means being first and best, so they worked hard for it, then when they saw where it got them, they realized it was not a good life for them (or they weren't willing to sell their soul for the money). Most have the courage and financial ability to change tracks at that point. Some never grow from the mind set, some have golden handcuffs by that point and feel stuck, and a much smaller number actually love the work and have a mission unrelated to the money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ chance at those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

FIFY

So you believe that all college students are aiming for a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job and if they don't get one it's because they didn't have a chance? Wow. You are so narrow and shallow. Truth: the nursing majors, future doctors and teachers, theater and film kids, kids vested in research sciences, and so on, and so on, want zero to do with your consulting jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no interest in those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

+1000 I wish this was emphasized more. A lot of Ivy students are brainwashed into the idea that they have to do consulting/IB, and end up behind in a genuine career search, because they spent undergrad delaying their future by doing case prep. It’s the heavy recruiting that’s causing these changes.

A good book on the subject is Liquidated by Karen Ho.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

The Penn State kids had to work far harder to get there, and them being there is a lucky break. The Ivy kids had a much easier time.

The kids who got into HYPSM just go their lucky break earlier.

The difference between HYPSM and Penn State is not a "lucky break" There is a lot of blood sweat and tears that went into that differential.

I’m sure there are kids also working hard at Penn State. Also yes there is some luck to get in HYPSM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school ... [t]hen why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? ... Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious?

I am a bad parent, raising fat, spoiled, entitled, stupid, undisciplined kids. At the right schools, my kids will have friends whose parents are business executives with connections. Their friends will tell them about summer internships and other opportunities. If I pay for study-abroad, yacht vacations, and a New York city apartment, then my kids' academic social circles can leverage a low-paid but prestigious internship into a decent career. They won't need to be smart or work hard at Yale, where 80% of grades are A's or A-minuses!

Think about it. An A-student from Yale sounds impressive, doesn't it? Surely this will get my kids into an easy masters program at Columbia or Georgetown. Nobody flunks out of top law schools either. My daughters can marry a classmate, and my sons can work a soul-sucking investment banking job or hustle in sales. This will compensate for my failures as a parent.

[Anonymous]

Didn’t we just have the exact same thread?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ chance at those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

FIFY

So you believe that all college students are aiming for a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job and if they don't get one it's because they didn't have a chance? Wow. You are so narrow and shallow. Truth: the nursing majors, future doctors and teachers, theater and film kids, kids vested in research sciences, and so on, and so on, want zero to do with your consulting jobs.

But these are not the cast majority of people. I include all non-STEM in the analysis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ chance at those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

FIFY

So you believe that all college students are aiming for a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job and if they don't get one it's because they didn't have a chance? Wow. You are so narrow and shallow. Truth: the nursing majors, future doctors and teachers, theater and film kids, kids vested in research sciences, and so on, and so on, want zero to do with your consulting jobs.

Those are the people that can and should go to lower ranked schools. Pedigree doesn’t matter- some of those job are vocational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a foreigner and newcomer to DC - we moved here for my husband’s work ~ 2 years ago from Western Europe. We have two boys and the oldest just started high school here, so I’ve been trying to learn about US college admissions in case my kids express interest in attending school here.

This is what I have trouble understanding:
- if now desirable employers recruit from a large range of schools rather than only from a few elite schools
- if you can have access to quality peers beyond the T20 schools since there are way more qualified kids than spots at these schools
- if you can get a quality education at pretty much any top 100 school, and
- if life outcomes are truly dependent on the kid rather than the school

Then why oh why are kids (and parents) putting themselves through so much stress and anxiety to get into HYPSM? This is what I don’t get.

Is it purely because Harvard and Yale are more prestigious than Penn State and Miami? So it’s just about prestige and bragging rights?

-The desirable employers do not recruit equally from second tier schools as they do from top tier schools, they just don't.
-The difference in peer group starts to drop off around T15 then again at around T35 and once you are outside the top 75 or so, the population of mediocre students is large enough that the peer group effect is fairly diluted.
-The quality of education is largely dependent on your peer group. You are going much faster and much deeper when you have a better peer group.
-Life outcomes are not indifferent to college pedigree. A Harvard grad has easier access to some opportunities than a Northeastern grad.

The difference between Emory and Penn State may not be life altering but the difference between HYPSM (particularly HMS) and Penn State is.
Your peer group in college is different, the lifetime reputational benefits are different, your opportunities straight out of college are different.

The bolded - I ask how?! I work in finance and every cohort has kids from HYPSM AND state schools, such as Penn State, etc. They ALL ended up in the SAME place! HYPSM made NO difference!

They don't ALL ended up in the SAME place!
There I FIFY

Do you honestly expect people to believe that all penn state grads end up at the same place as harvard grads?

HYPSM account for maybe 0.1% of college graduates. They are very likely over-represented in hiring at top employers (along with whatever local favorites your firm has).

Penn state grads can do as well as a harvard grad but the road is not as easy. They can either try to make a 5% cut at the college admissions stage or make a 10% cut after graduating penn state which has a 50% acceptance rate to get the same job as the average T10 grad. But at some point you have to compete.

Np. Exactly.
What % of the graduating class at Harvard gets a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job at graduation? Now do the same (% of graduating class) for Penn State.

Percent of the class is silly in this context. What percent are you actually competing against? The vast majority of people you want to include in your analysis have no i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ chance at those positions. You are going to have far more vicious competition from your hooked classmates at Harvard, who were basically guaranteed that job by virtue of birth (which is also why they got into Harvard).

FIFY

So you believe that all college students are aiming for a consulting/IB/PE/HF/FANG/PWM etc job and if they don't get one it's because they didn't have a chance? Wow. You are so narrow and shallow. Truth: the nursing majors, future doctors and teachers, theater and film kids, kids vested in research sciences, and so on, and so on, want zero to do with your consulting jobs.

But these are not the cast majority of people. I include all non-STEM in the analysis.

Humanities majors need the pedigree though. Otherwise the degree is worthless.