Biden Admin to Remove Statue of William Penn from Philadelphia Park

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will any of you outraged posters come clean and confess you've never even looked at any of the statues in public spaces before and can't name the person depicted by the statue closest to your office? Come on, this is an anonymous board. We know it's true, go ahead and be honest!

Wow, so much projection in your post. You really need to get outside more and pay better attention to your surroundings, including the statues and artwork in our midst. Good luck!

Actually I’d like the answer to this from anyone who objects to this. Specifically the Penn statue. Answer the question.

My first date with my now-husband was at this monument, then we were engaged there, and my DD learned to walk right in front of it. Okay? What’s it to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

One step at a time. Justice is a process.

Indeed. In the last couple of years you were forced to get rid of your memorials to those who sought to destroy the United States in the south. You were forced to abandon your military base names commemorating enslavers.
Here’s a hint. There are more enlightened folks than there are of your kind and will continue to progress to a equitable future while you sit at home in your MAGA hat.

Yeah.... that horrible individual who sought to destroy the US ...... that repulsive..... Abraham Lincoln.
Thanks for saving us from such injustice.



And, I am assuming that you believe George Floyd to be one of those more enlightened folks?

Lincoln cynically allowed some Union states to keep their slaves and only changed his tune over politics not morality. The George Floyd statues serve as reminders to the oppressors - never again will they have such power over the underprivileged.

But Floyd was an oppressor to pregnant women and women of color, so maybe choose someone else?

Any bad behavior by him doesn’t justify being violently murdered by a police officer. Which is the point of this particular memorial. Not to honor the man but to acknowledge what happened to him.

Then why is it a sculpture of his face? Do you not think that centers him as a person?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

One step at a time. Justice is a process.

Indeed. In the last couple of years you were forced to get rid of your memorials to those who sought to destroy the United States in the south. You were forced to abandon your military base names commemorating enslavers.
Here’s a hint. There are more enlightened folks than there are of your kind and will continue to progress to a equitable future while you sit at home in your MAGA hat.

Yeah.... that horrible individual who sought to destroy the US ...... that repulsive..... Abraham Lincoln.
Thanks for saving us from such injustice.



And, I am assuming that you believe George Floyd to be one of those more enlightened folks?

Lincoln cynically allowed some Union states to keep their slaves and only changed his tune over politics not morality. The George Floyd statues serve as reminders to the oppressors - never again will they have such power over the underprivileged.

But Floyd was an oppressor to pregnant women and women of color, so maybe choose someone else?

Any bad behavior by him doesn’t justify being violently murdered by a police officer. Which is the point of this particular memorial. Not to honor the man but to acknowledge what happened to him.

William Penn is honored for his role founding the state as a Quaker state and a refuge for slave. Not for any "bad behavior by him", whatever that might have been. N'est-ce pas?

Or we can overlook Floyd's past when we acknowledge his value to the country. But we can only see negatives when we look at the Founding Fathers, rather than their value to the country, because ... well, I don't really understand why. But some people on this thread can supply the explanation.

Well said

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will any of you outraged posters come clean and confess you've never even looked at any of the statues in public spaces before and can't name the person depicted by the statue closest to your office? Come on, this is an anonymous board. We know it's true, go ahead and be honest!

Wow, so much projection in your post. You really need to get outside more and pay better attention to your surroundings, including the statues and artwork in our midst. Good luck!

Actually I’d like the answer to this from anyone who objects to this. Specifically the Penn statue. Answer the question.

My first date with my now-husband was at this monument, then we were engaged there, and my DD learned to walk right in front of it. Okay? What’s it to you?

Lol

[Anonymous]

Perhaps Democratic stalinists can melt down the liberty bell to make a statue of George Floyd?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will any of you outraged posters come clean and confess you've never even looked at any of the statues in public spaces before and can't name the person depicted by the statue closest to your office? Come on, this is an anonymous board. We know it's true, go ahead and be honest!

Wow, so much projection in your post. You really need to get outside more and pay better attention to your surroundings, including the statues and artwork in our midst. Good luck!

Actually I’d like the answer to this from anyone who objects to this. Specifically the Penn statue. Answer the question.

My first date with my now-husband was at this monument, then we were engaged there, and my DD learned to walk right in front of it. Okay? What’s it to you?

Lol

😉

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Are you suggesting we completely edit out the founding fathers from history, ignoring the pivotal role they played in creating the world’s greatest democracy?

I’m suggesting we recognize their importance as well as their complicated, flawed past through the lens of historical context and celebrate how far we’ve come post-abolition, post-civil rights era, etc.

There’s a lot to be learned from those who fought for religious freedom, equality, etc. A lot.

This is exactly what the PP is suggesting and hoping for. It's really beyond sad. I agree with your take on this situation - we can honor those who have built this country while also recognizing their flaws and educating ourselves about both things.

LMAO. Those who built this country??? Your golden calves simply wiped out the indigenous peoples and then commanded their slaves to build.

Your opinion of history is so laughably simplistic. I have to assume you learned it in a bot farm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

DP. You must be joking. Good grief, learn some history about how Africans treated one another, or Asians... you're dreaming if you think "Western" civilization was somehow worse than any other.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-slave-traders-were-african-11568991595
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html
https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/slavery-in-east-asia/69CDDD5E84C9CC20EF4E67ECB832BD17
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/history-of-subsaharan-africa/asian-slave-trade/20938F6ADC9096FD22BDDCA5C581F1CF

Ah. This thread is about William Penn. You’re just trying to change the subject because it makes you squeamish, having to question your privilege.

I don't understand why it would make anyone squeamish. Or what you mean by "question your privilege." Could you explain, or would that be asking you to do my emotional labor for me? I wouldn't want to tax your delicate sensibilities.

[Anonymous]

Read the comments on this twitter post:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So it turns out at least part of the site was land given by grandson John Penn to the Haudenosaunee "in perpetuity" for their diplomatic and trade delegations. This is based on both Quaker and Native American historical records.

Fair play that they redesign the park to include that fascinating aspect of the history. Right now it's a pretty blah square with just the statue standing in the middle.

In a thread that’s 90% right wingers working themselves into a lather with posts that show they’re actively working at being ignorant, your post is a breath of sanity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have you been to that "park"? (It's not really a park, it's a plaza between buildings) It's been in need of work by the National Park Service for years, and the addition of exhibits describing the importance of the location to both the native people and the Europeans who settled there is a good thing.

And about the statue - it's a small copy of the 37-foot statue of Penn which is on top of Philadelphia's City Hall building. So calm yourself, no one is being "canceled."

https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/william-penn/

No. It’s the ONLY site in the city dedicated to the life and ideas of its founder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you been to that "park"? (It's not really a park, it's a plaza between buildings) It's been in need of work by the National Park Service for years, and the addition of exhibits describing the importance of the location to both the native people and the Europeans who settled there is a good thing.

And about the statue - it's a small copy of the 37-foot statue of Penn which is on top of Philadelphia's City Hall building. So calm yourself, no one is being "canceled."

https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/william-penn/

No. It’s the ONLY site in the city dedicated to the life and ideas of its founder.

According to PP:

So it turns out at least part of the site was land given by grandson John Penn to the Haudenosaunee "in perpetuity" for their diplomatic and trade delegations. This is based on both Quaker and Native American historical records.

As a Quaker, Penn would abhor having a site like this dedicated to himself. It’s not modest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you been to that "park"? (It's not really a park, it's a plaza between buildings) It's been in need of work by the National Park Service for years, and the addition of exhibits describing the importance of the location to both the native people and the Europeans who settled there is a good thing.

And about the statue - it's a small copy of the 37-foot statue of Penn which is on top of Philadelphia's City Hall building. So calm yourself, no one is being "canceled."

https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/william-penn/

No. It’s the ONLY site in the city dedicated to the life and ideas of its founder.

According to PP:

So it turns out at least part of the site was land given by grandson John Penn to the Haudenosaunee "in perpetuity" for their diplomatic and trade delegations. This is based on both Quaker and Native American historical records.

As a Quaker, Penn would abhor having a site like this dedicated to himself. It’s not modest.

Sounds like the park is modest, isn't that the complaint? Too boring?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you been to that "park"? (It's not really a park, it's a plaza between buildings) It's been in need of work by the National Park Service for years, and the addition of exhibits describing the importance of the location to both the native people and the Europeans who settled there is a good thing.

And about the statue - it's a small copy of the 37-foot statue of Penn which is on top of Philadelphia's City Hall building. So calm yourself, no one is being "canceled."

https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/william-penn/

No. It’s the ONLY site in the city dedicated to the life and ideas of its founder.

According to PP:

So it turns out at least part of the site was land given by grandson John Penn to the Haudenosaunee "in perpetuity" for their diplomatic and trade delegations. This is based on both Quaker and Native American historical records.

As a Quaker, Penn would abhor having a site like this dedicated to himself. It’s not modest.

Sounds like the park is modest, isn't that the complaint? Too boring?

It isn’t the quality of the park he’d reject it’s the entire notion of having a park dedicated to him with his effigy in the middle of it. Have you ever been inside a Quaker meeting house? (That’s what they call their “churches”—since you seem unfamiliar with Quakerism.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will any of you outraged posters come clean and confess you've never even looked at any of the statues in public spaces before and can't name the person depicted by the statue closest to your office? Come on, this is an anonymous board. We know it's true, go ahead and be honest!

Wow, so much projection in your post. You really need to get outside more and pay better attention to your surroundings, including the statues and artwork in our midst. Good luck!

Actually I’d like the answer to this from anyone who objects to this. Specifically the Penn statue. Answer the question.

My first date with my now-husband was at this monument, then we were engaged there, and my DD learned to walk right in front of it. Okay? What’s it to you?

Fortunately for your family’s history, you can still point to the gigantic larger than life statue of Penn on top of city hall and say “mommy and daddy got engaged in front of a statue that looked just like that, only a lot smaller, that used to be in a nearby square”

Phew! Your kid can still learn about William Penn and your engagement story. Crisis averted.