Old (2019) NYT article—“In the salary race, Engineering majors sprint, but English majors endure”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why are many here continually making the assumption that kids are being pushed into CS by their parents? Our public school district has been laser-focused on touting the importance of competency in STEM skills since my now-HS kid was in kindergarten.

Additionally, if a kid shows a preference for and aptitude in math and science over social studies, language and literature, doesn't want to be a doctor or lawyer but wants to make a fairly decent living, engineering/CS etc. seem to be one obvious answer for them.

I have know idea whether it's parental pressure or response to the STEM drumbeat, but the number of math majors has exploded. I don't teach but I've heard from a lot of people who do, and math course are more unpleasant than ever. The students that are taking classes because they like math are now very much drowned out by the people who hate the classes, hate the major, but think it will pay the bills. It didn't used to be this way, but every field gets over run from time to time.

College is not a place to continue your hobby paying shit ton of money.

Nor is it the place to fail classes over and over in a subject you both hate & suck at, that you only picked because you thought it was the golden ticket.

I don’t know where the failing classes part is coming from, it’s totally possible to get a stem degree with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.

Yes, an environmental science degree.

A math degree.

It is not possible to get a math degree “with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.”

It absolutely is, I know so many examples. Short of actual disability, anyone could get a math degree. I don’t know where this reverence comes from.

I don’t think any idiot could get a classics or a philosophy degree either.

But I am truly confused about your assertion that one needs no skills to get a math degree. I think most of us with average to high average IQs could handle the math that goes into engineering. But higher level math does require a certain type of mind. Not saying those people are “smarter” but I truly don’t think anyone could do it.

Producing advanced math sure, completing a math degree absolutely does not require skill beyond sit-on-your-butt. It's a lot more fun if you're the sort that just naturally loves it, but you can say that about any field. Point is this is exactly what's going on in math departments right now, people are plodding through math degrees like other people plod through econ degrees. (There are people who love econ, there are plenty who don't but get by all the same.)

This is what idiots say who have never completed a math degree.

Nope, the opposite. I would guess it's mostly proud parents and people in other fields who are pushing back. (An engineer who grudgingly competes the math for their degree *is* someone in another field.) I'm saying it and I have a math degree. I bring it up here because I'm hearing it from people who have fancier degrees than mine, and are teaching this influx of students.

I have a math degree and you're full of sh*t. Nobody can grind it out without skill and intelligence. Any "plodding" people get weeded out sophomore year and driven into other majors.

Or, the degree you hold is evidence they aren’t weeded out. Just saying.

lol no I saw the weeding out happen. Sounds like you got a fake degree from an online program, just saying.

Or, you saw people unwilling to sit-on-their-butt because a math degree wasn’t worth it to them. Now people believe there are jobs for math majors and that law schools, medical schools value the training. Things have changed. I do know people with math degrees who just stuck it out, it’s always been possible. The difference is now it’s becoming common place.

It’s fascinating to me that there is a poster who keeps insisting that anyone can finish a math BS.

It’s curious to me that a field that throughout history was just one of the subjects an educated person studies, has now been walled off as requiring special genius. I think the disrespect English majors get around here is wrong, but the reverence for math majors is weirder still. I was math/physics married to a math major parent of a math major and a history major, child of two English majors (including one who managed hundreds of engineers as a technical director and did very well without an advanced degree, just a stint in government).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scrabbling, desperate STEM people on this thread are pretty funny to see.

actually, it's the English majors who are funny: Oh but I make six figures, and I have a graduate degree. See, you can get an undergrad in English and make good money... you just need to spend another $100K+ to do it.

I have undergraduate degrees in both STEM and the humanities, a BS/BA double major. The STEM majors in this thread are a lot more embarrassing. Goodness, have some self-respect.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why are many here continually making the assumption that kids are being pushed into CS by their parents? Our public school district has been laser-focused on touting the importance of competency in STEM skills since my now-HS kid was in kindergarten.

Additionally, if a kid shows a preference for and aptitude in math and science over social studies, language and literature, doesn't want to be a doctor or lawyer but wants to make a fairly decent living, engineering/CS etc. seem to be one obvious answer for them.

I have know idea whether it's parental pressure or response to the STEM drumbeat, but the number of math majors has exploded. I don't teach but I've heard from a lot of people who do, and math course are more unpleasant than ever. The students that are taking classes because they like math are now very much drowned out by the people who hate the classes, hate the major, but think it will pay the bills. It didn't used to be this way, but every field gets over run from time to time.

College is not a place to continue your hobby paying shit ton of money.

Nor is it the place to fail classes over and over in a subject you both hate & suck at, that you only picked because you thought it was the golden ticket.

I don’t know where the failing classes part is coming from, it’s totally possible to get a stem degree with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.

Yes, an environmental science degree.

A math degree.

It is not possible to get a math degree “with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.”

It absolutely is, I know so many examples. Short of actual disability, anyone could get a math degree. I don’t know where this reverence comes from.

I don’t think any idiot could get a classics or a philosophy degree either.

But I am truly confused about your assertion that one needs no skills to get a math degree. I think most of us with average to high average IQs could handle the math that goes into engineering. But higher level math does require a certain type of mind. Not saying those people are “smarter” but I truly don’t think anyone could do it.

Producing advanced math sure, completing a math degree absolutely does not require skill beyond sit-on-your-butt. It's a lot more fun if you're the sort that just naturally loves it, but you can say that about any field. Point is this is exactly what's going on in math departments right now, people are plodding through math degrees like other people plod through econ degrees. (There are people who love econ, there are plenty who don't but get by all the same.)

This is what idiots say who have never completed a math degree.

Nope, the opposite. I would guess it's mostly proud parents and people in other fields who are pushing back. (An engineer who grudgingly competes the math for their degree *is* someone in another field.) I'm saying it and I have a math degree. I bring it up here because I'm hearing it from people who have fancier degrees than mine, and are teaching this influx of students.

I have a math degree and you're full of sh*t. Nobody can grind it out without skill and intelligence. Any "plodding" people get weeded out sophomore year and driven into other majors.

Or, the degree you hold is evidence they aren’t weeded out. Just saying.

lol no I saw the weeding out happen. Sounds like you got a fake degree from an online program, just saying.

Or, you saw people unwilling to sit-on-their-butt because a math degree wasn’t worth it to them. Now people believe there are jobs for math majors and that law schools, medical schools value the training. Things have changed. I do know people with math degrees who just stuck it out, it’s always been possible. The difference is now it’s becoming common place.

It’s fascinating to me that there is a poster who keeps insisting that anyone can finish a math BS.

Fascinating? You must lead a pretty boring life...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The scrabbling, desperate STEM people on this thread are pretty funny to see.

actually, it's the English majors who are funny: Oh but I make six figures, and I have a graduate degree. See, you can get an undergrad in English and make good money... you just need to spend another $100K+ to do it.

I have undergraduate degrees in both STEM and the humanities, a BS/BA double major. The STEM majors in this thread are a lot more embarrassing. Goodness, have some self-respect.

Oh, so you think the PP who stated that anyone can get a math major if they just " sit-on-their-butt" is less embarrassing than people who are saying that higher level math is quite challenging for most people? lol

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was an English major and I have an MLS - Master of Library Science. I am head of a unit in a library and I make $175,000 a year.... pffft.

Let me guess, you’re 50?

I made that at 30.

The thing that is also super silly is that all these English majors have to go get grad degrees in other fields to have any semblance of a decent career. Look at this moron citing his MS in Library Science and that's what his job is. That's not a result of your english degree, buffoon. Nobody in chemical engineering needs to waste another two years of their life and $60k getting another semi useless MS degree

Do you feel better about yourself now, jerk?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Running a library is a science?
lol

Yeah libraries are replaced by Google and chatgpt right now it's just public urinal for homeless. No educational skills needed to wash the floors and toilet's.

What an ignoramus…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was an English major and I have an MLS - Master of Library Science. I am head of a unit in a library and I make $175,000 a year.... pffft.

Let me guess, you’re 50?

I made that at 30.

The thing that is also super silly is that all these English majors have to go get grad degrees in other fields to have any semblance of a decent career. Look at this moron citing his MS in Library Science and that's what his job is. That's not a result of your english degree, buffoon. Nobody in chemical engineering needs to waste another two years of their life and $60k getting another semi useless MS degree

Do you feel better about yourself now, jerk?

Studying engineering is okay, but it can be mind-numbingly boring to be an engineer. I know so many engineers who are dying to quit to do something else. There a few who love it, but many find it tedious. Often the only way up is to manage and many are not great at that. The really good engineers have options for more technical specialist roles, but the average ones just basically stick it out or get an MBA and pivot.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/business/liberal-arts-stem-salaries.html

College is not trade school! What you make starting out isn’t very relevant. Think long-term.

STEM majors aren’t in “trade school”. They are as highly educated as their humanities peers and have as many options for flexible career shifts long term.

Also, while salaries may eventually equal out, that fast start allows STEM majors to pay off loans quickly, save to pay cash for a car, and save for a down payment on a house. Compound interest and early investment in the stock market is a wonderful thing for retirement.

This! The VAST MAJORITY of STEM kids are smarter/more intelligent than the VAST MAJORITY of English grads. The only smart kids that WANT to get an English degree are those that love English or are getting an 'easy' degree for a high GPA as a stepping stone to grad school (medicine, law or MBA). The first group will score high on job/career satisfaction and the latter, of course, will make money compared to a CS grad that didn't go to grad school. A third group will just coast on family connections.. Get into a decent school, study English or something equally fu fu, get a job with daddy's company or daddy's friend's and go up the ladder. The skills needed for a high level job are less cerebral and more interpersonal. I know someone who dropped out of college (English major) who 20 years later is the COO of a large company in another country (daddy's connections) and seems to be doing well (anecdotal, of course). I also know many, many STEM grads that decided to get an MBA and are rubbing shoulders with the C Suite.

If you were to measure the collective wealth of ALL STEM undergrads and compare that to ALL liberal arts grads adjusted for college pedigree, I bet the the STEM grads would be way ahead of the LA peers at any age group. Common sense.

Provide data to prove your point, PP. Your post is pure conjecture.

https://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e4f6e555d97fdd45bc70fde996cf6506

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/business/liberal-arts-stem-salaries.html

College is not trade school! What you make starting out isn’t very relevant. Think long-term.

STEM majors aren’t in “trade school”. They are as highly educated as their humanities peers and have as many options for flexible career shifts long term.

Also, while salaries may eventually equal out, that fast start allows STEM majors to pay off loans quickly, save to pay cash for a car, and save for a down payment on a house. Compound interest and early investment in the stock market is a wonderful thing for retirement.

This! The VAST MAJORITY of STEM kids are smarter/more intelligent than the VAST MAJORITY of English grads. The only smart kids that WANT to get an English degree are those that love English or are getting an 'easy' degree for a high GPA as a stepping stone to grad school (medicine, law or MBA). The first group will score high on job/career satisfaction and the latter, of course, will make money compared to a CS grad that didn't go to grad school. A third group will just coast on family connections.. Get into a decent school, study English or something equally fu fu, get a job with daddy's company or daddy's friend's and go up the ladder. The skills needed for a high level job are less cerebral and more interpersonal. I know someone who dropped out of college (English major) who 20 years later is the COO of a large company in another country (daddy's connections) and seems to be doing well (anecdotal, of course). I also know many, many STEM grads that decided to get an MBA and are rubbing shoulders with the C Suite.

If you were to measure the collective wealth of ALL STEM undergrads and compare that to ALL liberal arts grads adjusted for college pedigree, I bet the the STEM grads would be way ahead of the LA peers at any age group. Common sense.

The fact you think this way shows you have no real idea how the business world works, and I say this as someone with a graduate STEM degree from HYPS.

Lady, I AM in the 'business world'! Saying 'I don't think so' is not really a strong argument.. but then, I don't expect any better from an liberal arts major.

Good Lord. You can’t read at all. No wonder you struggle with English and in business.

I said plainly above that I have a graduate STEM degree (engineering) from HYPS.

Your graduate degree is not your major. They were talking about your major, not your graduate degree. The fact that you missed this means it's you who can't read. This isn't the pot calling the kettle black - it's the pot calling the fine china black. How embarrassing.

You are an idiot. You can’t get a graduate engineering degree from HYPS without an undergraduate STEM major.

I know, I know, that sort of logic is beyond you. Poor little thing. You are just outclassed.

DP. There you go with your ad hominem attacks! The fact that you are defending an article that position that says English majors do better than Engineering/CS majors after x years of graduation by itself shows who the idiot is. If that's still not clear, just stand in front of a reflective surface and you'll see them.

You have no experience in the actual working world. That much is brilliantly clear.

And what you bolded isn’t an ad hominem attack. Go back and learn some English. You don’t know how to use the phrase “ad hominem” correctly.

Not PP, but that is technically an ad hominem attack since you went after the poster instead of their argument. I think you might have stood to gain from majoring in English back in college.

It’s not an ad hominem attack if it’s factual.

Yes it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg/1414px-Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg.png

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are many here continually making the assumption that kids are being pushed into CS by their parents? Our public school district has been laser-focused on touting the importance of competency in STEM skills since my now-HS kid was in kindergarten.

Additionally, if a kid shows a preference for and aptitude in math and science over social studies, language and literature, doesn't want to be a doctor or lawyer but wants to make a fairly decent living, engineering/CS etc. seem to be one obvious answer for them.

I have know idea whether it's parental pressure or response to the STEM drumbeat, but the number of math majors has exploded. I don't teach but I've heard from a lot of people who do, and math course are more unpleasant than ever. The students that are taking classes because they like math are now very much drowned out by the people who hate the classes, hate the major, but think it will pay the bills. It didn't used to be this way, but every field gets over run from time to time.

College is not a place to continue your hobby paying shit ton of money.

Nor is it the place to fail classes over and over in a subject you both hate & suck at, that you only picked because you thought it was the golden ticket.

I don’t know where the failing classes part is coming from, it’s totally possible to get a stem degree with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.

Yes, an environmental science degree.

A math degree.

It is not possible to get a math degree “with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.”

It absolutely is, I know so many examples. Short of actual disability, anyone could get a math degree. I don’t know where this reverence comes from.

I don’t think any idiot could get a classics or a philosophy degree either.

But I am truly confused about your assertion that one needs no skills to get a math degree. I think most of us with average to high average IQs could handle the math that goes into engineering. But higher level math does require a certain type of mind. Not saying those people are “smarter” but I truly don’t think anyone could do it.

Producing advanced math sure, completing a math degree absolutely does not require skill beyond sit-on-your-butt. It's a lot more fun if you're the sort that just naturally loves it, but you can say that about any field. Point is this is exactly what's going on in math departments right now, people are plodding through math degrees like other people plod through econ degrees. (There are people who love econ, there are plenty who don't but get by all the same.)

This is what idiots say who have never completed a math degree.

Nope, the opposite. I would guess it's mostly proud parents and people in other fields who are pushing back. (An engineer who grudgingly competes the math for their degree *is* someone in another field.) I'm saying it and I have a math degree. I bring it up here because I'm hearing it from people who have fancier degrees than mine, and are teaching this influx of students.

I have a math degree and you're full of sh*t. Nobody can grind it out without skill and intelligence. Any "plodding" people get weeded out sophomore year and driven into other majors.

Or, the degree you hold is evidence they aren’t weeded out. Just saying.

lol no I saw the weeding out happen. Sounds like you got a fake degree from an online program, just saying.

Or, you saw people unwilling to sit-on-their-butt because a math degree wasn’t worth it to them. Now people believe there are jobs for math majors and that law schools, medical schools value the training. Things have changed. I do know people with math degrees who just stuck it out, it’s always been possible. The difference is now it’s becoming common place.

It’s fascinating to me that there is a poster who keeps insisting that anyone can finish a math BS.

It’s curious to me that a field that throughout history was just one of the subjects an educated person studies, has now been walled off as requiring special genius.

That was computational math, i.e. arithmetic, algebra, maybe statistics and calculus. That's always been a basic life skill for any educated person. Proof-based mathematics (real analysis, topology, abstract algebra, differential geometry, etc) is what people are talking about when they say not anyone can "butt-in-seat" their way to a math degree

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are many here continually making the assumption that kids are being pushed into CS by their parents? Our public school district has been laser-focused on touting the importance of competency in STEM skills since my now-HS kid was in kindergarten.

Additionally, if a kid shows a preference for and aptitude in math and science over social studies, language and literature, doesn't want to be a doctor or lawyer but wants to make a fairly decent living, engineering/CS etc. seem to be one obvious answer for them.

I have know idea whether it's parental pressure or response to the STEM drumbeat, but the number of math majors has exploded. I don't teach but I've heard from a lot of people who do, and math course are more unpleasant than ever. The students that are taking classes because they like math are now very much drowned out by the people who hate the classes, hate the major, but think it will pay the bills. It didn't used to be this way, but every field gets over run from time to time.

College is not a place to continue your hobby paying shit ton of money.

Nor is it the place to fail classes over and over in a subject you both hate & suck at, that you only picked because you thought it was the golden ticket.

I don’t know where the failing classes part is coming from, it’s totally possible to get a stem degree with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.

Yes, an environmental science degree.

A math degree.

It is not possible to get a math degree “with no skill beyond sit-on-your-butt.”

It absolutely is, I know so many examples. Short of actual disability, anyone could get a math degree. I don’t know where this reverence comes from.

I don’t think any idiot could get a classics or a philosophy degree either.

But I am truly confused about your assertion that one needs no skills to get a math degree. I think most of us with average to high average IQs could handle the math that goes into engineering. But higher level math does require a certain type of mind. Not saying those people are “smarter” but I truly don’t think anyone could do it.

Producing advanced math sure, completing a math degree absolutely does not require skill beyond sit-on-your-butt. It's a lot more fun if you're the sort that just naturally loves it, but you can say that about any field. Point is this is exactly what's going on in math departments right now, people are plodding through math degrees like other people plod through econ degrees. (There are people who love econ, there are plenty who don't but get by all the same.)

This is what idiots say who have never completed a math degree.

Nope, the opposite. I would guess it's mostly proud parents and people in other fields who are pushing back. (An engineer who grudgingly competes the math for their degree *is* someone in another field.) I'm saying it and I have a math degree. I bring it up here because I'm hearing it from people who have fancier degrees than mine, and are teaching this influx of students.

I have a math degree and you're full of sh*t. Nobody can grind it out without skill and intelligence. Any "plodding" people get weeded out sophomore year and driven into other majors.

Or, the degree you hold is evidence they aren’t weeded out. Just saying.

lol no I saw the weeding out happen. Sounds like you got a fake degree from an online program, just saying.

Or, you saw people unwilling to sit-on-their-butt because a math degree wasn’t worth it to them. Now people believe there are jobs for math majors and that law schools, medical schools value the training. Things have changed. I do know people with math degrees who just stuck it out, it’s always been possible. The difference is now it’s becoming common place.

It’s fascinating to me that there is a poster who keeps insisting that anyone can finish a math BS.

It’s curious to me that a field that throughout history was just one of the subjects an educated person studies, has now been walled off as requiring special genius.

That was computational math, i.e. arithmetic, algebra, maybe statistics and calculus. That's always been a basic life skill for any educated person. Proof-based mathematics (real analysis, topology, abstract algebra, differential geometry, etc) is what people are talking about when they say not anyone can "butt-in-seat" their way to a math degree

The basic life skill that hardly anyone uses after they graduate from college...

[Anonymous]

There is a paywall. What specifically does the article say?