MCPS Reaches Agreement with MCEA to Raise Teachers' Wages

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

Learn to read. The PP was clear.
A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

As a teacher I will be evaluating parents on performance. Can't wait!

::Sigh::

This is a great idea! I will happily evaluate parents!

That is fine but ::spoiler alert:: that is not going to get you paid like a tech worker

No, because we value tech workers more than we value teachers.

-not a teacher

Okay? Lots of people (the vast majority of master's level workers) are not paid like tech workers.

Whose work is more important to society, teachers or tech workers?

It doesn't matter. Nobody in charge of teacher compensation can take money from tech workers and tech workers only and give it to teachers. And even if you did, it wouldn't be enough.

The median earnings for workers in Montgomery County is $60k. All of those people will be impacted in some.way by a property tax hike.

It doesn't matter? Do we want good teachers, or don't we?

I don't know what on earth you are trying to argue.

I think teachers should get paid more. I think people who argue that teachers should get paid more because tech workers get paid so much, are doing teachers a disservice. It's an insult to residents of Montgomery County whom you are insinuating are all raking it in with our cushy tech jobs. That's not accurate, and it's a distraction from the real issue which is that we are a county with growing needs and not much in terms of growing resources to pay for those needs. A tax increase doesn't help this situation.

This whole thing got taken out of its original context. Someone was trying to say private sector jobs don't get yearly raises (while also bashing teachers yearly step increases), when everyone I know in my industry does. DCUM twisted it into something completely different, because...this is DCUM. If you're not a teacher, you should probably stop chiming in on what you think is a good enough salary for them. I don't sit around and debate what I think engineers should make. I don't think about what financial planners should make. I don't care. I don't do their job. I don't know what every day life looks like doing their role. You all think you have a say what teachers are worth or what they should earn because you pay property taxes. Sit down and shut up.

Wow. What?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

My spouse works in tech and gets merit increases yearly. Yours is in the wrong job

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

As a teacher I will be evaluating parents on performance. Can't wait!

::Sigh::

This is a great idea! I will happily evaluate parents!

That is fine but ::spoiler alert:: that is not going to get you paid like a tech worker

No, because we value tech workers more than we value teachers.

-not a teacher

It's been said those who can't do teach...

Only idiots say this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's been said those who can't do teach...

I assure you that I can do first grade work.

[Anonymous]

If only we could get someone good like Michelle Rhee, to clean house at MCPS, and put the focus back on learning.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

+1 teachers don't want their compensation to be based on performance.

In this thread a few posters have acted like the fact that someone in a different profession makes more money than teachers is proof that teachers are underpaid. But people who make $120k for 6 months or $195k for 12 months have to be able to perform well, based on the subjective assessment of their supervisor (who promoted/hired and retained them at that level). It's not always fair but that is how you make more money than $80k after 10 years, which I agree is not enough.

I'm the person who posted about $120k for six months..There is NO subjective assessment. It has nothing to do with performance. It is the salary set forth in the contract. In general, I'm in an entirely different field and "subjective assessments"? Also, not a thing. It isn't 1986.

What do you think subjective assessment means that it only happened decades ago? I am so curious.

Also, you clearly don't want to share more details about how the $120k for six months happens but I can tell you it doesn't happen by starting a job straight out of school and getting automatic raises for X number of years.

You’re an adult- I don’t need to explain it to you. You have resources at your fingertips. Hell, kids out of high school make over 100k for 6 months a year. There are many contracted jobs that pay well. It’s not like it’s a secret. Use your brain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

+1 teachers don't want their compensation to be based on performance.

In this thread a few posters have acted like the fact that someone in a different profession makes more money than teachers is proof that teachers are underpaid. But people who make $120k for 6 months or $195k for 12 months have to be able to perform well, based on the subjective assessment of their supervisor (who promoted/hired and retained them at that level). It's not always fair but that is how you make more money than $80k after 10 years, which I agree is not enough.

I'm the person who posted about $120k for six months..There is NO subjective assessment. It has nothing to do with performance. It is the salary set forth in the contract. In general, I'm in an entirely different field and "subjective assessments"? Also, not a thing. It isn't 1986.

What do you think subjective assessment means that it only happened decades ago? I am so curious.

Also, you clearly don't want to share more details about how the $120k for six months happens but I can tell you it doesn't happen by starting a job straight out of school and getting automatic raises for X number of years.

You’re an adult- I don’t need to explain it to you. You have resources at your fingertips. Hell, kids out of high school make over 100k for 6 months a year. There are many contracted jobs that pay well. It’s not like it’s a secret. Use your brain.

*meant to say kids out of hs can work on oil rigs and make that.

[Anonymous]

Wow I don't know how we got to oil rigs but it sounds like what you are saying is there are numerous options for anyone who wants to make $100k working only 6 months. And yet, the median wage for the hundreds of thousands of workers in Montgomery County for a full year is $60k. Is everyone who lives here just an idiot or do people just not like to make money? Or maybe, just maybe, those opporunities are actually not as widely available or easy to get as you so disingenuously imply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

+1 teachers don't want their compensation to be based on performance.

In this thread a few posters have acted like the fact that someone in a different profession makes more money than teachers is proof that teachers are underpaid. But people who make $120k for 6 months or $195k for 12 months have to be able to perform well, based on the subjective assessment of their supervisor (who promoted/hired and retained them at that level). It's not always fair but that is how you make more money than $80k after 10 years, which I agree is not enough.

I'm the person who posted about $120k for six months..There is NO subjective assessment. It has nothing to do with performance. It is the salary set forth in the contract. In general, I'm in an entirely different field and "subjective assessments"? Also, not a thing. It isn't 1986.

What do you think subjective assessment means that it only happened decades ago? I am so curious.

Also, you clearly don't want to share more details about how the $120k for six months happens but I can tell you it doesn't happen by starting a job straight out of school and getting automatic raises for X number of years.

You’re an adult- I don’t need to explain it to you. You have resources at your fingertips. Hell, kids out of high school make over 100k for 6 months a year. There are many contracted jobs that pay well. It’s not like it’s a secret. Use your brain.

JFC there is a reason some contracted jobs pay well. Oil rigs is an excellent example. And also totally irrelevant to this discussion. Use your brain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

+1 teachers don't want their compensation to be based on performance.

In this thread a few posters have acted like the fact that someone in a different profession makes more money than teachers is proof that teachers are underpaid. But people who make $120k for 6 months or $195k for 12 months have to be able to perform well, based on the subjective assessment of their supervisor (who promoted/hired and retained them at that level). It's not always fair but that is how you make more money than $80k after 10 years, which I agree is not enough.

I'm the person who posted about $120k for six months..There is NO subjective assessment. It has nothing to do with performance. It is the salary set forth in the contract. In general, I'm in an entirely different field and "subjective assessments"? Also, not a thing. It isn't 1986.

What do you think subjective assessment means that it only happened decades ago? I am so curious.

Also, you clearly don't want to share more details about how the $120k for six months happens but I can tell you it doesn't happen by starting a job straight out of school and getting automatic raises for X number of years.

You’re an adult- I don’t need to explain it to you. You have resources at your fingertips. Hell, kids out of high school make over 100k for 6 months a year. There are many contracted jobs that pay well. It’s not like it’s a secret. Use your brain.

JFC there is a reason some contracted jobs pay well. Oil rigs is an excellent example. And also totally irrelevant to this discussion. Use your brain.

You couldn’t comprehend how that was possible in your reply. Lay off the bottle.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

+1 teachers don't want their compensation to be based on performance.

In this thread a few posters have acted like the fact that someone in a different profession makes more money than teachers is proof that teachers are underpaid. But people who make $120k for 6 months or $195k for 12 months have to be able to perform well, based on the subjective assessment of their supervisor (who promoted/hired and retained them at that level). It's not always fair but that is how you make more money than $80k after 10 years, which I agree is not enough.

I'm the person who posted about $120k for six months..There is NO subjective assessment. It has nothing to do with performance. It is the salary set forth in the contract. In general, I'm in an entirely different field and "subjective assessments"? Also, not a thing. It isn't 1986.

What do you think subjective assessment means that it only happened decades ago? I am so curious.

Also, you clearly don't want to share more details about how the $120k for six months happens but I can tell you it doesn't happen by starting a job straight out of school and getting automatic raises for X number of years.

You’re an adult- I don’t need to explain it to you. You have resources at your fingertips. Hell, kids out of high school make over 100k for 6 months a year. There are many contracted jobs that pay well. It’s not like it’s a secret. Use your brain.

JFC there is a reason some contracted jobs pay well. Oil rigs is an excellent example. And also totally irrelevant to this discussion. Use your brain.

And yet, funny enough… there’s no forums debating oil riggers worth. Get a clue. Read the room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow I don't know how we got to oil rigs but it sounds like what you are saying is there are numerous options for anyone who wants to make $100k working only 6 months. And yet, the median wage for the hundreds of thousands of workers in Montgomery County for a full year is $60k. Is everyone who lives here just an idiot or do people just not like to make money? Or maybe, just maybe, those opporunities are actually not as widely available or easy to get as you so disingenuously imply.

The fact you still don’t get the point a DP made is amazing. People come in DCUM to lament and complain about how “cushy” teaching jobs are and how teachers only work 10 months and how it’s oso unfair…. Childish and immature. So someone posted other positions that aren’t 12 months to prove not everyone is a slave for 12 months. It’s embarrassing you don’t understand this. No one is saying teachers are people on oil rigs. The point was plenty (PLENTY) of contracted jobs pay well and people don’t work all year long but they don’t receive the same backlash teachers do. You just sound upset you couldn’t figure out a better life for yourself. I hope you get better soon.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

As a teacher I will be evaluating parents on performance. Can't wait!

::Sigh::

This is a great idea! I will happily evaluate parents!

That is fine but ::spoiler alert:: that is not going to get you paid like a tech worker

No, because we value tech workers more than we value teachers.

-not a teacher

Okay? Lots of people (the vast majority of master's level workers) are not paid like tech workers.

Whose work is more important to society, teachers or tech workers?

It doesn't matter. Nobody in charge of teacher compensation can take money from tech workers and tech workers only and give it to teachers. And even if you did, it wouldn't be enough.

The median earnings for workers in Montgomery County is $60k. All of those people will be impacted in some.way by a property tax hike.

It doesn't matter? Do we want good teachers, or don't we?

I don't know what on earth you are trying to argue.

I think teachers should get paid more. I think people who argue that teachers should get paid more because tech workers get paid so much, are doing teachers a disservice. It's an insult to residents of Montgomery County whom you are insinuating are all raking it in with our cushy tech jobs. That's not accurate, and it's a distraction from the real issue which is that we are a county with growing needs and not much in terms of growing resources to pay for those needs. A tax increase doesn't help this situation.

This whole thing got taken out of its original context. Someone was trying to say private sector jobs don't get yearly raises (while also bashing teachers yearly step increases), when everyone I know in my industry does. DCUM twisted it into something completely different, because...this is DCUM. If you're not a teacher, you should probably stop chiming in on what you think is a good enough salary for them. I don't sit around and debate what I think engineers should make. I don't think about what financial planners should make. I don't care. I don't do their job. I don't know what every day life looks like doing their role. You all think you have a say what teachers are worth or what they should earn because you pay property taxes. Sit down and shut up.

You don’t sit around and decide what FPS or Engineers should make but someone does. Then they set the pay scale at a company. Also, you determine what you would be willing to pay each one to do a job for you or how much you would pay for a product or services that they play a part in. That information goes into determining salary. Teacher salary is no different. It’s debated by the community because the salary is paid for out of taxes. So the community has to determine how much they value teachers in comparison with everything else and how much they think they should be paid. Once the community decides that Teaching is a highly value position, it will indeed raise the salary. It will also determine the requirements for the work, which might mean teachers become 12month employees or other changes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60k starting salary is nothing to sneeze at

Over time you still lose out because there aren't any promotions but that is a very generous starting salary.

In most industries employees get pay increases based on the subjective assessments of their supervisors, but teachers' unions don't want that.

I work in tech. I get quarterly raises that have nothing to do with "subjective assessments" or even merit. The outrage people in other industries give teachers is so pathetic.

My spouse works in tech too. There are no raises and you have to job jump for more money.

Because your spouse works in tech, their experience is the end all? You're the authority on every tech job ever? Wow! I had no idea I was in the presence of such genius! DP, but I also work in tech. My own firsthand experience is yes, we get raises throughout the year AND we also job jump. Imagine that. Someone else with a different experience than you. Hard to imagine with such a narrow world view but try.

Saying you work tech and that it is normal to get regular raises means nothing. My spouse had had multiple jobs and none gave raises like that. That's great you get that but it’s not normal.

I mean, hi. DP here in tech. Raises are absolutely the norm. Don’t know what to tell ya. You telling us your spouse doesn’t get raises means nothing too. It’s irrelevant to this thread but you might want to have a chat with them because what they are telling you isn’t true.

No they are not the norm and my spouse has had multiple jobs. In some jobs, the salary goes up and down every year due to RSU's. I know they are telling me the truth as I manage the money and do the taxes.

A simple Google search about tech job raises would do you wonders. "In 2021, the median salary for IT pros at large enterprises was $100,022, and $95,681 for those at mid-sized firms. In 2022, however, merit increases for IT pros lept to 5.61%, with the median salary for all IT professionals rising from $95,845 to $101,323. The median salary for an IT executive rose to $180,000." Followed by article after article about tech raises. But sure, you keep doing your spouses finances and using that to claim to be an expert. Sounds like your spouse might not be good at their job. Ever think of that?

The real point is, teachers' wages don't match their education. Most teachers have one or two masters and make under $100k and this is considered normal. It's an insult.

Alright, let's settle down.

To review, someone made the point that there are "no promotions" for teachers. I made the point that in other sectors where there are promotions, it's based on the subjective decision of a supervisor. It's often not totally "fair". Teachers' unions have explicitly opposed merit-based raises. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be paid what you're worth, and also expect not to have your pay based on your performance.

We expect our step increases to match our worth. Truly not that difficult to comprehend.

But not every teacher has the same value.

I work in a "cushy office job", WFH three days a week, bathroom whenever I want, extremely flexible. Can be quite stressful, but overall I consider myself very lucky. I make $120k after 10 years. No pension so it's not quite as much more money than teachers as it might appear, but it is more (I am also being paid for more hours). But I got here by getting promoted by my boss. A coworker who started at the same time as I did in the same job never got promoted. He makes $65k.

Yeah… hence the steps. That was a whole paragraph typed out just to tell us you didn’t read the PP’s comment. The step represents each year a teacher has been teaching… so yes… experience. Jesus

Can you really not see the difference between compensating someone more purely on the basis of more years on the job, versus actual performance?

It turns out it's not so easy to figure out how to evaluate teachers based on "actual performance".

It’s really not easy to evaluate anyone on the basis of actual performance.

+1 teachers don't want their compensation to be based on performance.

In this thread a few posters have acted like the fact that someone in a different profession makes more money than teachers is proof that teachers are underpaid. But people who make $120k for 6 months or $195k for 12 months have to be able to perform well, based on the subjective assessment of their supervisor (who promoted/hired and retained them at that level). It's not always fair but that is how you make more money than $80k after 10 years, which I agree is not enough.

What does "performance" mean, when you're a teacher, and how does the supervisor evaluate it?

Parent survey, student survey, have you taken in any additional task like mentoring a new teacher or training student teachers, are your students performing well on district and external testing, if those that are not do you have documented interventions plans, does AP and team lead feel you contribute positively to the team, are you trusted, have you presented data and new ideas, etc etc. Same as any other profession.

School systems would just use all this against teachers to avoid giving raises. The teacher with all the nice high achieving kids would be guaranteed to have an easier time getting good feedback. A teacher in a rougher school could have one class decide to drive the teacher out of teaching. The STEP system is the only fair way to encourage teachers to stay longer with more skills.

But yet these are along the lines of what people in other professions are judged on for performance. And then they are plotted along a bell curve in their department to determine where they fall. And then each department is given a strict budget for raises and told how many people can fall in the top categories. So once it’s all said and done a top performer could wind up with a 2% raise and an average performer could wind up let go.

[Anonymous]

I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?