The JK Rowling Podcast

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

So trans women are to be called women but biological women should be called people?

No. Both are women.

Let's see if transwomen would like to be called transpeople for the sake of inclusiveness. It removes the most central part of our identity and you know it. Words have power.

Nothing is being removed. You can still call yourself a woman. You are fine.

Exactly. The notion that we are genderless until we proactively claim our womanhood is disempowering to the greater community of women. We no longer have a right to our community and safe spaces. WE no longer get to define womanhood. Instead, a group of men is doing that for us. I think we call that misogyny

Yes, it is misogyny. It saddens me that Gen Z is not seeing that.

Gen Z is seeing it. It’s the millennials that don’t. TikTok is full of young women pushing back on gender ideology. You just don’t see it if you aren’t on TikTok.

I think Gen Z has very, very little tolerance for bullshit. They lived through their schools being shut down and their lives being upended, and they will not going along with pretending that the emperor had no clothes.

Do you know any teens? Because all of the many teens I know don’t think this is a big deal at all.

I know and am around a lot of teens.

What they say publicly and what they say privately are very different. Teens, especially girls, who say anything against gender ideology face exclusion and for the girls, the possibility of violence. They all know that.

This group is not going to tolerate what the millennials did.

BS. It’s legit not a big deal for most teens today. Maybe teens in conservative areas who grew up hearing bigoted things from their parents won’t be as accepting.

I’m the PP who wrote that and I’m in deep blue California.

It is quite a big deal for teens today, particularly teen girls, and especially teen girl athletes. But they also know the price that kids pay who speak out, and they are biding their time. They don’t like that, either.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

So trans women are to be called women but biological women should be called people?

No. Both are women.

Let's see if transwomen would like to be called transpeople for the sake of inclusiveness. It removes the most central part of our identity and you know it. Words have power.

Nothing is being removed. You can still call yourself a woman. You are fine.

Exactly. The notion that we are genderless until we proactively claim our womanhood is disempowering to the greater community of women. We no longer have a right to our community and safe spaces. WE no longer get to define womanhood. Instead, a group of men is doing that for us. I think we call that misogyny

Yes, it is misogyny. It saddens me that Gen Z is not seeing that.

Gen Z is seeing it. It’s the millennials that don’t. TikTok is full of young women pushing back on gender ideology. You just don’t see it if you aren’t on TikTok.

I think Gen Z has very, very little tolerance for bullshit. They lived through their schools being shut down and their lives being upended, and they will not going along with pretending that the emperor had no clothes.

Just because your TikTok algorithm has your biases pegged doesn’t mean that you are getting accurate information. All the polls I’ve seen indicate that GenZ has the highest percentage of people who don’t believe in a gender binary.

Polling is rarely accurate.

But your TikTok algorithm is? Please.

Then go out to schools and talk to all the teens who use different pronouns for their friends. I’ve got three teens. They all believe in gender ideology, and each of them has at least a few non-binary friends.

+1

It’s very common and not a big deal for teens.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was reading content from the Cleveland Clinic about pregnancy recently it did not mention to work woman/women even once. Like this page, 14 occurrences of "people" and 0 of "women":
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/9709-pregnancy-am-i-pregnant

That's crazy to me. We are women. We constitute 99.999999% of the pregnancies in this country. How do you just gloss over that?

My OB office made me fill up a form where one of the question was "sex assigned at birth: male / female". I was tempted to say that it was assigned at birth but observed, just like in 99.999999% of cases since the beginning of times.

Wait-- why would a transwoman need an OB?

I wondered the same.

a post-surgery trans woman would need to see a gyn. I assume OP is using gyn/OB interchangeably. But a trans man pre surgery would also need to see one.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was reading content from the Cleveland Clinic about pregnancy recently it did not mention to work woman/women even once. Like this page, 14 occurrences of "people" and 0 of "women":
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/9709-pregnancy-am-i-pregnant

That's crazy to me. We are women. We constitute 99.999999% of the pregnancies in this country. How do you just gloss over that?

My OB office made me fill up a form where one of the question was "sex assigned at birth: male / female". I was tempted to say that it was assigned at birth but observed, just like in 99.999999% of cases since the beginning of times.

Wait-- why would a transwoman need an OB?

I wondered the same.

a post-surgery trans woman would need to see a gyn. I assume OP is using gyn/OB interchangeably. But a trans man pre surgery would also need to see one.

Many trans men avoid OB offices and basically never go.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a cis hetero man who has at times tried to make the case that JK Rowling has simply being trying to say what many posters here are saying. And I've thought that I'd be seen as an ally to natal women when making this case.

And 3 natal women have disagreed with me and thought it was JK Rowling who is trying to shut down conversations.

I don't get it.

It's because women hate to be perceived as a TERF, a Karen, or whatever misogynist stereotype of the day. It's the reason why we laugh at sexist jokes and ridicule other women because we so scared of being the one laughed at.

It’s not just that they hate to be perceived as a TERF. It is that women who are identified as such face violence and threats of violence. The brave women like JKR who speak up for women endure threats and violence against them. The risks for speaking out for women are very high.

Well the sad part is that it works. Seeing this level of hate really dissuades from speaking up. I don't speak up in real life.

Same. But I will say this thread give me hope that we all haven't jumped off the deep end. I think more of us agree with her than let on.

Oh, PP. There are lots of us. It’s just that we can’t speak up right now for fear of risking everything.

I feel like things will change soon, though. It feels like these underground discussions are happening more and more.

I’m hopeful.

[NP]

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think she is very courageous. She will be remembered for being willing to take a hard stance against misogyny.

agree

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

[Anonymous]

Well, this thread has gone exactly the way I thought it would

One thing is certain: whether you agree with Rowling or not, she has received an outsized amount of abuse and threats for what many (most?) believe are common sense views.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, this thread has gone exactly the way I thought it would

One thing is certain: whether you agree with Rowling or not, she has received an outsized amount of abuse and threats for what many (most?) believe are common sense views.

“Common sense”?

Threats are unwarranted, but she opened herself up to criticism.

[Anonymous]

I think a significant number of people who have decided they hate Rowling and that she is a bigot have never taken the time to actually parse her views on this.

One factor at play here is that there has always been a current of resentment and condescension towards her, well before she got labeled a TERF. There have always been a large group of people who think her success is unearned, that her books are poorly written rip-offs of other great Children's literature. I also think you'd have to be naive not to assume a certain level of misogyny in these attitudes. People will claim otherwise, but Rowling became enormously successful, famous, and wealthy, and no woman is allowed to do that without also becoming polarizing and, often, loathed by large groups of people. You see similar attitudes about Oprah, Martha Stewart, Hillary Clinton, Sheryl Sandberg. I'm not saying I like all these women or think they are without flaws. But there is a specific flavor to criticism and dislike of them, and there's no question some of it is based in an unwillingness to accept a woman in singular position of wealth or power.

I do think some of Rowling's views are misguided. I also think she has made some really boneheaded missteps in trying to make her points, likely in part owing to being out of touch due to her wealth and isolation. But I have actually read what she has written on these subjects and given it a fair listen, and I do actually agree with some of what she has to say. And I don't think she's a bigot. She clearly doesn't hate trans people, or any LGBTQ+ people, for instance. Some of her fears about trans advocacy hurting women are overblown. But some are not.

It's just a much more nuanced conversation than people are willing to have, and I get tired of hearing people use Rowling as the butt of a joke about bigotry. If people had been willing to actually have the conversation and sit with some uncomfortable ideas, instead of retreating to black-and-white beliefs, I think this could have been a useful exercise. As it stands, Rowling has been much more balanced in her approach to the debate than most of her critics, many of whom don't really even know exactly what it is that she's said or done that upsets certain activists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think a significant number of people who have decided they hate Rowling and that she is a bigot have never taken the time to actually parse her views on this.

One factor at play here is that there has always been a current of resentment and condescension towards her, well before she got labeled a TERF. There have always been a large group of people who think her success is unearned, that her books are poorly written rip-offs of other great Children's literature. I also think you'd have to be naive not to assume a certain level of misogyny in these attitudes. People will claim otherwise, but Rowling became enormously successful, famous, and wealthy, and no woman is allowed to do that without also becoming polarizing and, often, loathed by large groups of people. You see similar attitudes about Oprah, Martha Stewart, Hillary Clinton, Sheryl Sandberg. I'm not saying I like all these women or think they are without flaws. But there is a specific flavor to criticism and dislike of them, and there's no question some of it is based in an unwillingness to accept a woman in singular position of wealth or power.

I do think some of Rowling's views are misguided. I also think she has made some really boneheaded missteps in trying to make her points, likely in part owing to being out of touch due to her wealth and isolation. But I have actually read what she has written on these subjects and given it a fair listen, and I do actually agree with some of what she has to say. And I don't think she's a bigot. She clearly doesn't hate trans people, or any LGBTQ+ people, for instance. Some of her fears about trans advocacy hurting women are overblown. But some are not.

It's just a much more nuanced conversation than people are willing to have, and I get tired of hearing people use Rowling as the butt of a joke about bigotry. If people had been willing to actually have the conversation and sit with some uncomfortable ideas, instead of retreating to black-and-white beliefs, I think this could have been a useful exercise. As it stands, Rowling has been much more balanced in her approach to the debate than most of her critics, many of whom don't really even know exactly what it is that she's said or done that upsets certain activists.

“I agree with her so I don’t think she’s a bigot.”

It’s not like people admit that they, and the people who share their views, are bigots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

[Anonymous]

8:09 here again.

I also want to note that I used to stand up for Rowling and try to explain to people that she has never (really, never) said a single thing against trans people, only the idea that there should be no distinction between trans women and those of who were born as women. She argues for a distinction. Some people consider that bigotry. I don't. A trans woman is different than a biological women. Not better or worse, just different -- different lived experience, faced a different kind of discrimination, needs a different kind of support and protection.

Anyway, I now avoid talking about Rowling at all because her name has become synonymous with bigotry and it is actually dangerous to even express a small amount of skepticism about the loathing of Rowling. I am grateful to her that she continues to advocate for what she believes despite the criticism. She doesn't have to. She could stop talking about this stuff, just write books, and let it go. She speaks up because she thinks it's important to do so. You might consider that misguided, but it's also brave.