The JK Rowling Podcast

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Sure, the kid raised as a privileged male who goes off to college, changes their name and starts wearing dresses totally gets the experiences, the attitudes, the expectations, the hormonal events that have shaped my life as a woman. Totally.

There isn’t one universal experience for women.

Going through female puberty is pretty close to universal and the implications are far reaching.

No it’s not.

How so? How would a biological woman who identifies as a woman in adulthood not have gone through female puberty?

My niece, to give you one elementary example, did not go through puberty on her own. An endocrinologist had to intervene because of an autoimmune disorder.

My cousin never had puberty due to chemotherapy as a child, they had hormone replacement therapy that never really worked.

But these are medical anomalies due to medical conditions or treatment. That's not the same as a biological woman who simply never menstruates. Your niece received treatment for her autoimmune disorder that enabled her body to go through puberty. Your cousin was receiving a treatment that causes all kinds of abnormal physical consequences, including disrupting puberty. These are exceptions that prove the rule.

Are they still women if they don’t have the “typical” experience with puberty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have no problem saying trans women are women, socially speaking. But I strongly disagree with “women period”. Because that is then used to argue that biology doesn’t make us women and womanhood is something that you can declare, and not an intrinsic part of our being. Something is deeply wrong when society asks itself “what’s a woman” and we are being told from the outside - once again - what defines a woman and how we should feel about it.

You are free to define it however you want. Bring a woman means different things to different people.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Trans women cannot get pregnant and do not menstruate. So they do not have a period. So no, they are not identical to biological women.

There are all types of cis-women as well. Some who can’t get pregnant and some who don’t menstruate.

Those bodily functions don’t define women.

So then I guess it’s just high heels and skirts? I truly, respectfully don’t understand. Why bother call themselves women at all, if the things that most women thinks makes them women, actually don’t?

No, women are certainly NOT defined by high heels and skirts.

The point is that those things don’t “make” people women.

Well then what does? The point of language is that people who use it have to agree upon what it means.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Trans women cannot get pregnant and do not menstruate. So they do not have a period. So no, they are not identical to biological women.

There are all types of cis-women as well. Some who can’t get pregnant and some who don’t menstruate.

Those bodily functions don’t define women.

That reasoning is univariate fallacy.
Biological sex binary exists for over 99% of humans.
Doesn’t mean transpeople shouldn’t be respected and protected. But it is not true that transwomen are women.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

It means be inclusive. Transgender women will fit in wherever they can, just as cisgender women do. We are all individuals and there isn’t a cookie cutter “woman” mold that we all fit into.

Then there is no PERIOD and it's open ended.

It’s all about context. Just like it is for every cisgender woman.

Reading this thread, and comments like the above, is making me think a lot about Masha Gessen's writing on totalitarianism and how it impacts people's ability to think. They've written quite a bit about how the Soviets did this, having lived under this regime, and also how the current Republican Party does it. But many of the arguments against Rowling, and against a more nuanced approach to trans issues than "Trans women are women, period" in this thread remind me of this work. Here's a quote from an interview with Gessen (interview is here: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/8/6/21328294/donald-trump-post-truth-masha-gessen-surviving-autocracy):

"Language determines what’s thinkable, right? I mean, it’s very hard to think a thought that you don’t have a word for — it’s impossible, in fact.

But there’s a huge difference between that limitation, which is just part of the human condition, and being in an encapsulated, ideological world that is divorced from the reality you can experience. And when Arendt writes about totalitarian ideology, she makes a very important point that any ideology can be totalitarian. And she writes that its key characteristic is that it’s entirely encapsulated; it’s impervious to any input from outside reality."

That's what "Trans women are women, period," is. It's an ideology that is impervious to any input from outside reality. Like if you can't explain how trans men fit into that ideology, just as an example, it makes no sense. But trans rights activists will just reiterate this over and over again and feel that it is enough, and ignore any and all concerns or arguments to simple EXPAND that ideology to actually account for reality. It's an ideology that can only exist in a Tweet or on a protest sign, but is meaningless in the context of actual lived experience.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Trans women cannot get pregnant and do not menstruate. So they do not have a period. So no, they are not identical to biological women.

There are all types of cis-women as well. Some who can’t get pregnant and some who don’t menstruate.

Those bodily functions don’t define women.

That reasoning is univariate fallacy.
Biological sex binary exists for over 99% of humans.
Doesn’t mean transpeople shouldn’t be respected and protected. But it is not true that transwomen are women.

Depends on context.

[Anonymous]

What was the context for “ Trans women are women, period”? Who said this? About what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no problem saying trans women are women, socially speaking. But I strongly disagree with “women period”. Because that is then used to argue that biology doesn’t make us women and womanhood is something that you can declare, and not an intrinsic part of our being. Something is deeply wrong when society asks itself “what’s a woman” and we are being told from the outside - once again - what defines a woman and how we should feel about it.

You are free to define it however you want. Bring a woman means different things to different people.

It should not.

Trans extremists are telling women "trans-women are women and what you thought made you a woman doesn't. In fact, there is nothing that makes you a woman". They are also telling us "you can't use the words that define you and your body because it's not inclusive". Yet trans-women are women, and we aren't anymore. Even when in our most biologically female functions we are not women anymore, we are pregnant people who chest-feed (medically wrong, by the way Cleveland Clinic). Even the violence we suffer is not "against women" anymore, it is "gender-based" now and it sounds much more vague.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

This this this!!! Trans-women are their own category, I will honor their right to protection safety and the right to a great life but stop snatching and stealing what is not yours! Women are different from trans-women, it’s NOT the same and we are NOT bigots to take and claim our rights and fight off those who will erode them!
No!

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Transwomen are not women. They are trans-women. There's a hyphen there. They are not the same as me. They can identify differently than men but they are not the same as a biological woman. I have a completely different set of biological and medical concerns than a trans women, and a trans women has different medical concerns than I do. We also have different social and cultural issues which plague us.

Why are we so black and white? Is the English language and our cultural construct limited to two categories? No, we can have a third, or fourth, if needed. They are not women, who were born women and have never previously been men. They are trans-women, who were once men. Different groups entirely. This is really not rocket science.

This. The problem is that people have decided that "trans women are women PERIOD" is the definition of trans acceptance, and anything else is bigotry.

So Rowling is a bigot because she dares to say "but wait, aren't trans women different than biological women in some ways?" Like that's some kind of radical statement. But it's true on its face.

Rowling does get some things wrong. There are aspects of trans acceptance and trans activism that she think threaten biological women but don't. But the problem is that people don't want to have a conversation about that nuance, in a way that might result in peopel saying "oh, okay, I was worried about that but I now see it's not a concern." Instead, they scream that she's a bigot, ban her books, posture online about how they hate her, and never actually engage the conversation. Which has just entrenched her into some of her incorrect views.

But if we could start from the premise that "Trans women are women but there are some differences between biological and trans women (and also some commonalities between trans men and biological women, and between trans women and biological men), so when we set policy and make laws, we should consider that sometimes the lines will be drawn differently in order to ensure everyone's rights are protected and that vulnerable groups are not erased or exploited."

I mean, yeah, that doesn't fit on a sign you might hold outside a bookstore to protest an author you've decided is a stupid bigot, and it's not as catchy. But it has the benefit of being more true and more useful in terms of actually describing the world as it is.

Go ahead and call me a TERF now.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Sure, the kid raised as a privileged male who goes off to college, changes their name and starts wearing dresses totally gets the experiences, the attitudes, the expectations, the hormonal events that have shaped my life as a woman. Totally.

There isn’t one universal experience for women.

Going through female puberty is pretty close to universal and the implications are far reaching.

No it’s not.

How so? How would a biological woman who identifies as a woman in adulthood not have gone through female puberty?

My niece, to give you one elementary example, did not go through puberty on her own. An endocrinologist had to intervene because of an autoimmune disorder.

My cousin never had puberty due to chemotherapy as a child, they had hormone replacement therapy that never really worked.

But these are medical anomalies due to medical conditions or treatment. That's not the same as a biological woman who simply never menstruates. Your niece received treatment for her autoimmune disorder that enabled her body to go through puberty. Your cousin was receiving a treatment that causes all kinds of abnormal physical consequences, including disrupting puberty. These are exceptions that prove the rule.

Are they still women if they don’t have the “typical” experience with puberty?

Yet another straw man. When did anyone, including Rowling, argue that all women have a "typical" experience? Rowling's arguments are almost entirely rooted in her experience as a sexual violence survivor, an experience that no one would ever call "typical".

Trans women and biological women are both women and have shared concerns and experiences. But they are also distinct, and just as an example, biological women have female reproductive organs therefore, with very few exceptions, go through female puberty, menstruate, must factor risk of pregnancy into all sexual choices, etc. Are there some exceptions? Sure. Is there a great deal of variety in how biological women experience this aspect of womanhood? Absolutely. For instance, some biological women are also trans men. They are men in all ways EXCEPT that they have the experience of a biological woman. Which matters, since they can get pregnant, give birth, and are vulnerable to medical issues specific to biological women.

But it is also the primary difference between biological women and trans women. It is a real difference with real consequences, especially consequences related to sex, pregnancy, childbirth, and also motherhood. Acting like there is NO DIFFERENCE between biological and trans women is dangerous because so many of the protections and rights that women have spent centuries fighting to get and maintain are related to these things that only biological women experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Transwomen are not women. They are trans-women. There's a hyphen there. They are not the same as me. They can identify differently than men but they are not the same as a biological woman. I have a completely different set of biological and medical concerns than a trans women, and a trans women has different medical concerns than I do. We also have different social and cultural issues which plague us.

Why are we so black and white? Is the English language and our cultural construct limited to two categories? No, we can have a third, or fourth, if needed. They are not women, who were born women and have never previously been men. They are trans-women, who were once men. Different groups entirely. This is really not rocket science.

This. The problem is that people have decided that "trans women are women PERIOD" is the definition of trans acceptance, and anything else is bigotry.

So Rowling is a bigot because she dares to say "but wait, aren't trans women different than biological women in some ways?" Like that's some kind of radical statement. But it's true on its face.

Rowling does get some things wrong. There are aspects of trans acceptance and trans activism that she think threaten biological women but don't. But the problem is that people don't want to have a conversation about that nuance, in a way that might result in peopel saying "oh, okay, I was worried about that but I now see it's not a concern." Instead, they scream that she's a bigot, ban her books, posture online about how they hate her, and never actually engage the conversation. Which has just entrenched her into some of her incorrect views.

But if we could start from the premise that "Trans women are women but there are some differences between biological and trans women (and also some commonalities between trans men and biological women, and between trans women and biological men), so when we set policy and make laws, we should consider that sometimes the lines will be drawn differently in order to ensure everyone's rights are protected and that vulnerable groups are not erased or exploited."

I mean, yeah, that doesn't fit on a sign you might hold outside a bookstore to protest an author you've decided is a stupid bigot, and it's not as catchy. But it has the benefit of being more true and more useful in terms of actually describing the world as it is.

Go ahead and call me a TERF now.

This this this!!! Trans-women are their own category, I will honor their right to protection safety and the right to a great life but stop snatching and stealing what is not yours! Women are different from trans-women, it’s NOT the same and we are NOT bigots to take and claim our rights and fight off those who will erode them!
No!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no problem saying trans women are women, socially speaking. But I strongly disagree with “women period”. Because that is then used to argue that biology doesn’t make us women and womanhood is something that you can declare, and not an intrinsic part of our being. Something is deeply wrong when society asks itself “what’s a woman” and we are being told from the outside - once again - what defines a woman and how we should feel about it.

You are free to define it however you want. Bring a woman means different things to different people.

It should not.

Trans extremists are telling women "trans-women are women and what you thought made you a woman doesn't. In fact, there is nothing that makes you a woman". They are also telling us "you can't use the words that define you and your body because it's not inclusive". Yet trans-women are women, and we aren't anymore. Even when in our most biologically female functions we are not women anymore, we are pregnant people who chest-feed (medically wrong, by the way Cleveland Clinic). Even the violence we suffer is not "against women" anymore, it is "gender-based" now and it sounds much more vague.

Citation? Who are these “trans extremists”?

[Anonymous]

I love it when someone AMAB transplains to me what a woman is or is not, and what I’m allowed to think, and feel, about that.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have no problem saying trans women are women, socially speaking. But I strongly disagree with “women period”. Because that is then used to argue that biology doesn’t make us women and womanhood is something that you can declare, and not an intrinsic part of our being. Something is deeply wrong when society asks itself “what’s a woman” and we are being told from the outside - once again - what defines a woman and how we should feel about it.

You are free to define it however you want. Bring a woman means different things to different people.

It should not.

Trans extremists are telling women "trans-women are women and what you thought made you a woman doesn't. In fact, there is nothing that makes you a woman". They are also telling us "you can't use the words that define you and your body because it's not inclusive". Yet trans-women are women, and we aren't anymore. Even when in our most biologically female functions we are not women anymore, we are pregnant people who chest-feed (medically wrong, by the way Cleveland Clinic). Even the violence we suffer is not "against women" anymore, it is "gender-based" now and it sounds much more vague.

Citation? Who are these “trans extremists”?

A prime example is the PPs who are arguing that biology doesn't make someone a woman.

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Anonymous wrote:I was actively supporting LGBTQI rights until they decided to walk all over women's rights, at a time when hard-won gains are being reversed all over the world. Women are being marginalized, quite literally, pushed to the side, told to be quiet and make space. The words to describe us are disappearing from our lexicon, from article, and studies. We have become merely "people". While the violence against us and the hate of women continue to claim our lives and destroy our spirits.

Spot on.

Can't believe how much I was manipulated by this extreme gender ideology for years. Kinda angry with myself for letting them walk all over my boundaries, while also marginalizing my own abuse experiences.

YES. If I read about "pregnant people " anymore I will lose it.

Why? What’s the harm is there being inclusive? It doesn’t affect you. You can still say woman.

It doesn't affect me ? Yes it does affect me. The way people refer to me affects me. I am a woman and would like to be called a woman. People are coming up with all sorts of pronouns they want others to use but women have to suck it up and be called people because it makes others more comfortable?

We are all people. Nothing wrong with that.

This is gaslighting and you know it.

Yes, this is akin to "all lives matter". This inclusiveness nonsense is only used as a tool to deprive women or minorities of their sense of identity.

I like this analogy.

I really think an analogy could be made. Women, like black people and other groups have a sense of identity and belonging that is perceived as a threat by the "oppressor" (for lack of better word).

Transgender women certainly know what it’s like to be oppressed. Just look at this thread.

No one is disputing that. Instead PPs are disputing if transwomen are oppressed in exactly the same way as biological women and whether it therefore make sense to see the same groups as identical in all respects.

Nobody sees them as “identical in all respects” so…

They don't? I think you're the one who is confused.

Who sees them as “identical in all respects”? Even cis-women aren’t all “identical in all aspects”.

Transwomen are women. PERIOD. What does that mean to you? Kind of like women, but not really?

Sure, the kid raised as a privileged male who goes off to college, changes their name and starts wearing dresses totally gets the experiences, the attitudes, the expectations, the hormonal events that have shaped my life as a woman. Totally.

There isn’t one universal experience for women.

Going through female puberty is pretty close to universal and the implications are far reaching.

No it’s not.

How so? How would a biological woman who identifies as a woman in adulthood not have gone through female puberty?

My niece, to give you one elementary example, did not go through puberty on her own. An endocrinologist had to intervene because of an autoimmune disorder.

My cousin never had puberty due to chemotherapy as a child, they had hormone replacement therapy that never really worked.

But these are medical anomalies due to medical conditions or treatment. That's not the same as a biological woman who simply never menstruates. Your niece received treatment for her autoimmune disorder that enabled her body to go through puberty. Your cousin was receiving a treatment that causes all kinds of abnormal physical consequences, including disrupting puberty. These are exceptions that prove the rule.

Are they still women if they don’t have the “typical” experience with puberty?

Yet another straw man. When did anyone, including Rowling, argue that all women have a "typical" experience? Rowling's arguments are almost entirely rooted in her experience as a sexual violence survivor, an experience that no one would ever call "typical".

Trans women and biological women are both women and have shared concerns and experiences. But they are also distinct, and just as an example, biological women have female reproductive organs therefore, with very few exceptions, go through female puberty, menstruate, must factor risk of pregnancy into all sexual choices, etc. Are there some exceptions? Sure. Is there a great deal of variety in how biological women experience this aspect of womanhood? Absolutely. For instance, some biological women are also trans men. They are men in all ways EXCEPT that they have the experience of a biological woman. Which matters, since they can get pregnant, give birth, and are vulnerable to medical issues specific to biological women.

But it is also the primary difference between biological women and trans women. It is a real difference with real consequences, especially consequences related to sex, pregnancy, childbirth, and also motherhood. Acting like there is NO DIFFERENCE between biological and trans women is dangerous because so many of the protections and rights that women have spent centuries fighting to get and maintain are related to these things that only biological women experience.

Right. So there are no universal experiences and the context is important.