Advanced middle school math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the more interesting threads I've encountered here in a while (at least to me).

Never realized how big an advantage math acceleration was for these contests.

It's kind of unfortunate these options aren't available to all schools. One of my kids could've skipped a year or two of ES math because of their scores but would've required transportation, which we couldn't provide since the classes weren't available at their home school. Some schools in the county offer this on-premises, but ours isn't one of those. It's also not clear that we're doing a kid any favors by doing this aside from improving their ability to compete in some MS contests. [/quote

This carries forward to high school contests. If kids can achieve USAMO, they have a decent chance to get in to some top colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Citation for this? I was actually present at 2022 Mathcounts Nationals and spoke with parents and coaches. And you were.....?
You're full of shit. The kids there are accelerated to the maximum level allowed by their school districts. Most areas are more willing to accelerate kids than FCPS is. That being said, even FCPS has maybe 10 kids per year taking pre-Calc and Calc in 8th. Kids would get nowhere in Mathcounts without knowing Algebra, Geometry, and even Algebra II (and number theory, and Counting and Probability, and other stuff outside of the regular math curriculum).

There is a difference between 8th grade precalc and 5th grade algebra. I would expect FCPS has even more than that in precalc. LCPS has individual schools with whole sections taking Algebra 2 w trig, though they don't let you take calculus right after that.

I've competed at nationals, no one on my team had algebra before7th grade. That was a while ago and the contest is tougher now(though the top student scored 12 points higher than 2nd place, and 20 higher than the 5th place kid who moved up to 1st.) Even this year, I know several kids in Virginia who nearly made nationals last year and thus a decent chance this year, none had algebra before 6th in school. I think you are giving too much weight to the kids you saw, and the majority are not taking algebra in 5th grade. There are a bunch of states where 30 score is enough to advance, and some even 20.

Your information is out of date. BothMathcounts and AMC 10/12 cranked up the difficulty in the last 5 years in a way that, for better or worse, favors more highly accelerated kids. There also are more schools permitting hyper acceleration than ever before.

You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be. A kid doing Algebra in 6th and then doubling up later is competitive. A kid stuck learning nothing in school but hyper accelerated at AoPS (like many FCPS kids) could be competitive. A kid who hasn’t even finished geometry would have no chance.

My observation was that every kid at Nationals fit into one of these categories. 1. Hyper accelerated at school. 2. Bored and wasting time in school math but hyper accelerated at AoPS. 3. Representing a weak, non competitive state.

Since we are on this topic (which is somewhat farther than OP's original question), many of the top 50 kids (and certainly most if not all of the countdown round qualifiers) are also USAMO/USAJMO qualifiers. No way they qualify and do well in those if they aren't hyperaccelerated at school (or they are homeschooled) or at AOPS. Indeed Mathcounts is approaching AMC-10 (Q1-15) in difficulty according to my kid (who made Nationals and JMO last year in 7th). School algebra 1/2 or even Geometry is just the beginning for these contests, especially if speed is paramount.

It seems like the parents who are able to get their schools to accelerate their children gives them an advantage in these contests and conversely children at schools that refuse to accelerate, regardless of merit, are at a disadvantage.

Kids who accelerate are not guaranteed to do well. Many who take algebra 2 in 8th grade do poorly in these contests.
Also, acceleration might be a prerequisite to doing well, especially at state or nationals, but it is not a requirement.
Lots of kids who were in prealgebra in 6th grade or geometry in 8th grade do well. The topics covered go beyond these subjects, so kids who practice the other topics can pick up good scores, even if they don't learn about doing a line of best fit in excel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

AoPS etc / home study

MathCounts and JMO are algebra and geometry. Algebra 2 and trig aren't in contests until high school.

But yeah, kids who are ether top 500 in the country for this grade, don't worry about school math class. No school can keep up with the amount of outside enrichment needed for hyperacelleration and more importantly hyper *enrichment*. Mathematically gifted kids breeze through school math without need of teacher.

Perhaps your definition of algebra 1 is different, but algebra 2 topics show up in mathcounts. Particular equations for circle and parabola.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How are they allowed to do that? Even if a child magically perfectly knew all of math, I'm not aware of any policy that would allow them to take algebra 1 before 7th grade, geometry before 8th, algebra 2 before 9th, etc

Yet many students are doing this in FCPS and LCPS. There is a thread in the non-FCPS forum explaining procedure for LCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

No way they are making it to AMO/JMO in middle school if they don't have a good foundation in Alg/Geo beyond school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be.

Looking at the results in VA this year, at least one student who has not completed algebra 1 came pretty close to making nationals, and at least one student who did go to nationals did not have algebra 1 before 6th grade.

Even if they're not taking Alg/trig in school, they are learning it somewhere. I believe most of the VA team made USAJMO, which requires a strong AIME showing (which require Alg2+)

This. They're not reaching AIME/JMO/Mathcounts nationals with nothing more than the algebra I or geometry taught in FCPS/LCPS. They're taking outside classes somewhere. The one student who has not completed Algebra I yet came close to making nationals has at least taken an outside geometry class. Many of the problems in the state round this year required geometry.

No outside classes, but they study stuff on their own, or in team practices.

Well, then define "pretty close to making nationals." The VA cutoff for making nationals was like a 35 or 36, and the MD one was like a 40. It is doubtful that a kid who hasn't completed algebra I and has just done some free self study got a score anywhere near those levels.

No way they are making it to AMO/JMO in middle school if they don't have a good foundation in Alg/Geo beyond school.

No way they are scoring 30+ points on the Mathcounts state round with just Algebra I + school coaching. If a kid truly did that, then the kid is a math prodigy with parents who severely dropped the ball.

FWIW, I was just at mathcounts nationals. Most of the kids from the decent states are hyperaccelerated in math. If they are not accelerated through school, then they are through classes taken outside of school. Many are also JMO qualifiers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Supplementing in math 4 hours a week and expecting the school to accommodate is ridiculous

We don’t expect the school to accommodate. DS is in class at his grade level and we have not asked for him to be advanced.

That said, the Public schools are not set it to handle exceptional kids (and I don’t think my kid is exceptional) on either end of the spectrum. They are not great at helping kids with learning issues and they are not great at helping kids who are gifted. There are kids whose parents are supplementing because their child is legit bored at school. The schools don’t want to advance kids more quickly even when there is a kid who needs it. Should the parents of a gifted kid just let the kid twiddle their thumbs during school and learn nothing? Then people complain when the parents supplement so that the kid is actually challenged and has a chance to grow. It is a catch 22 and the kid is the one who is harmed by it.

Here is the point and we have gone round and round on this. Very few kids are actually gifted, like less than .01%. That's maybe one per grade even in a high IQ/SES region like this one. Those kids should be on alternative tracks than traditional public school.

For everyone else, the kids are just smart. There is no need or reason to accelerate in math. Again taking Algebra in 7th gives you 2 Calculus plus courses in high school which is more than enough. It is not a good idea to skip more than one core math component in college.

Actually the standard for gifted is typically lower than that. For general IQ the cutoff is usually 130 which is only the 98th percentile so 1% of kids are gifted. I imagine that in certain areas the percentage is higher because smart people cluster geographically. If you’re talking about math giftedness specifically the percentage will be lower because a very high verbal IQ score can bump an overall score to 130 even if they aren’t gifted in math, but I doubt it’s as low as .01.

I’m fine with 6th graders not taking Algebra but many have the capacity to do so. And actually this is true if they aren’t technically gifted. If somebody just really loves math, is above average intelligence, and has good executive functions skills they can handle an advanced math track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Supplementing in math 4 hours a week and expecting the school to accommodate is ridiculous

We don’t expect the school to accommodate. DS is in class at his grade level and we have not asked for him to be advanced.

That said, the Public schools are not set it to handle exceptional kids (and I don’t think my kid is exceptional) on either end of the spectrum. They are not great at helping kids with learning issues and they are not great at helping kids who are gifted. There are kids whose parents are supplementing because their child is legit bored at school. The schools don’t want to advance kids more quickly even when there is a kid who needs it. Should the parents of a gifted kid just let the kid twiddle their thumbs during school and learn nothing? Then people complain when the parents supplement so that the kid is actually challenged and has a chance to grow. It is a catch 22 and the kid is the one who is harmed by it.

Here is the point and we have gone round and round on this. Very few kids are actually gifted, like less than .01%. That's maybe one per grade even in a high IQ/SES region like this one. Those kids should be on alternative tracks than traditional public school.

For everyone else, the kids are just smart. There is no need or reason to accelerate in math. Again taking Algebra in 7th gives you 2 Calculus plus courses in high school which is more than enough. It is not a good idea to skip more than one core math component in college.

Actually the standard for gifted is typically lower than that. For general IQ the cutoff is usually 130 which is only the 98th percentile so 1% of kids are gifted. I imagine that in certain areas the percentage is higher because smart people cluster geographically. If you’re talking about math giftedness specifically the percentage will be lower because a very high verbal IQ score can bump an overall score to 130 even if they aren’t gifted in math, but I doubt it’s as low as .01.

I’m fine with 6th graders not taking Algebra but many have the capacity to do so. And actually this is true if they aren’t technically gifted. If somebody just really loves math, is above average intelligence, and has good executive functions skills they can handle an advanced math track.

I'm not fine with preventing 6th graders from taking Algebra when they have the capacity and desire to do so. Nothing is gained by forcing children to waste an hour of their day in a math class that is too remedial for them. If anything, they'll get turned off of math because the class is boring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Citation for this? I was actually present at 2022 Mathcounts Nationals and spoke with parents and coaches. And you were.....?
You're full of shit. The kids there are accelerated to the maximum level allowed by their school districts. Most areas are more willing to accelerate kids than FCPS is. That being said, even FCPS has maybe 10 kids per year taking pre-Calc and Calc in 8th. Kids would get nowhere in Mathcounts without knowing Algebra, Geometry, and even Algebra II (and number theory, and Counting and Probability, and other stuff outside of the regular math curriculum).

There is a difference between 8th grade precalc and 5th grade algebra. I would expect FCPS has even more than that in precalc. LCPS has individual schools with whole sections taking Algebra 2 w trig, though they don't let you take calculus right after that.

I've competed at nationals, no one on my team had algebra before7th grade. That was a while ago and the contest is tougher now(though the top student scored 12 points higher than 2nd place, and 20 higher than the 5th place kid who moved up to 1st.) Even this year, I know several kids in Virginia who nearly made nationals last year and thus a decent chance this year, none had algebra before 6th in school. I think you are giving too much weight to the kids you saw, and the majority are not taking algebra in 5th grade. There are a bunch of states where 30 score is enough to advance, and some even 20.

Your information is out of date. BothMathcounts and AMC 10/12 cranked up the difficulty in the last 5 years in a way that, for better or worse, favors more highly accelerated kids. There also are more schools permitting hyper acceleration than ever before.

You did move the goalpost there. The original assertion was that a kid taking Algebra I in 7th and geometry in 8th could be competitive in VA. They simply can’t be. A kid doing Algebra in 6th and then doubling up later is competitive. A kid stuck learning nothing in school but hyper accelerated at AoPS (like many FCPS kids) could be competitive. A kid who hasn’t even finished geometry would have no chance.

My observation was that every kid at Nationals fit into one of these categories. 1. Hyper accelerated at school. 2. Bored and wasting time in school math but hyper accelerated at AoPS. 3. Representing a weak, non competitive state.

Since we are on this topic (which is somewhat farther than OP's original question), many of the top 50 kids (and certainly most if not all of the countdown round qualifiers) are also USAMO/USAJMO qualifiers. No way they qualify and do well in those if they aren't hyperaccelerated at school (or they are homeschooled) or at AOPS. Indeed Mathcounts is approaching AMC-10 (Q1-15) in difficulty according to my kid (who made Nationals and JMO last year in 7th). School algebra 1/2 or even Geometry is just the beginning for these contests, especially if speed is paramount.

It seems like the parents who are able to get their schools to accelerate their children gives them an advantage in these contests and conversely children at schools that refuse to accelerate, regardless of merit, are at a disadvantage.

Many who take algebra 2 in 8th grade do poorly in these contests..

Are you seriously implying that it isn't a benefit? The algebra tested is algebra 2 or beyond. I don't know anyone who does well at high levels who hasn't learned algebra at that level, whether in school or on their own.
Acceleration might isn't sufficient, but it's mostly necessary. There's no excuse for blocking kids from their potential.

[Anonymous]

Everyone here seems to seriously underestimate how hard it is to qualify for USA(J)MO. 99.9% of high school seniors have never qualified qualify for USA(J)MO (actually, more like 99.99%). No one qualifies in middle school without a concerted effort and extreme acceleration, be that in school or out of it.