Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Do you really think Harvard would taint it's prestige by admitting students it didn't think these students would be successful?
The graduation rates for "unqualified" URMs are almost the same as Whites and Asians. Maybe you and your fancy brain can explain why these low-scoring URMs are not flunking out like you think they should.

+1

Someone is actually making sense in this thread.

The objection is that qualified URMs are getting the admission slot at a college like Harvard or a T25 school. Everyone knows per graduation rates that URMs graduate from elite colleges at similar rates after 4 or so years ( HBCU graduation rates are a totally different issue... yikes).

In a zero sum dynamic, some don't want qualified URMs to get that T25 slot , as if someone else "deserved"it more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Thank you!

But that’s not why American schools value. They want students that excel in many areas (more well rounded). Like it or not, that’s what elite American schools see as they key to success. Culturally, other countries see other paths to success.

As an American— who graduated from an elite college, I totally get that. I just hadn’t realized what an anomaly some of our admissions requirements might be. I also have little sense of how admissions requirements might vary between schools even here — or what might have changed in the decades since I went through the admissions process myself.

When I have the time, and am up for another dash of humility, I’ll try those sample gaokao questions and see how I do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

Submitting AP scores aren't mandatory for college admissions. If you get a 5 and can get credit after admission, great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

Ok 90% academics

Please, just stop. That is not true here at all.

Did you go to college in the US or another country? Not going to college in the US might explain why you have trouble believing this.

I got my engineering degree from VT.
Did you do theater or something at college LOL what a bozo LMFAO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

Newsflash, education also happens outside the classroom! If you don't already know this, then thoughts and prayers.

then why do academic institutions care about the student's GPA?

What is college teaching kids outside the classroom, other than being an adult, living on your own, that they can't get experience from elsewhere? What unique "education" are colleges teaching outside the classroom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

Submitting AP scores aren't mandatory for college admissions. If you get a 5 and can get credit after admission, great.

DP Although if you went to a HS that the admissions office is not familiar with, high AP scores could be a very good data point to have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

Submitting AP scores aren't mandatory for college admissions. If you get a 5 and can get credit after admission, great.

But why should colleges look at AP scores if, like SATs, it's just one data point taken at a 2 hour interval of your life? maybe they should allow a score of 1 to be accepted for credit. After all, it's just one data point, and maybe the student has stellar extra curriculars that make up for the 1 on the AP test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

Submitting AP scores aren't mandatory for college admissions. If you get a 5 and can get credit after admission, great.

what elite college admits students from public schools with zero AP tests taken? I thought all these admitted students had stellar academic scores, and low scoring students aren't being admitted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Thank you!

But that’s not why American schools value. They want students that excel in many areas (more well rounded). Like it or not, that’s what elite American schools see as they key to success. Culturally, other countries see other paths to success.

Yes so that's what Asiasn Americans are like.
For the 100 millionth times, Assian Americans also excel in ECs and Leadership.
Welcome to the thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

Studies show that grades with rigor over 4 years of high school is the best predictor of college readiness. Moreso than looking at SAT alone ( 3 hours). Some studies say that the SAT predicts the first year of college, but as you know, college is 4+ years. A student can improve over 4 years.

Kids just don't "flunk out" of elite colleges.

The detractors who are all of a sudden deeply concerned about "school academic quality" at colleges are acting as if they are the academic police or something. The school administrators and professors know what they are doing.

I haven't seen any studies or read of any evidence of widespread grade inflation, especially over a 4 year period. Now, people do cheat ( Varsity Blues scandal), but it's usually the rich people with mediocre academic kids who do that. Thousands of dollars on test prep / tutoring/ consulting/ essay coaching, etc. isn't too far behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Thank you!

But that’s not why American schools value. They want students that excel in many areas (more well rounded). Like it or not, that’s what elite American schools see as they key to success. Culturally, other countries see other paths to success.

Yes so that's what Asiasn Americans are like.
For the 100 millionth times, Assian Americans also excel in ECs and Leadership.
Welcome to the thread.


The post doesn’t say Asian Americans are not like that. It just says the countries that test are different than the US. There was no comment about Asian American students (who are American so your point?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Do you really think Harvard would taint it's prestige by admitting students it didn't think these students would be successful?
The graduation rates for "unqualified" URMs are almost the same as Whites and Asians. Maybe you and your fancy brain can explain why these low-scoring URMs are not flunking out like you think they should.

DP. I’d also add that students who don’t graduate often do so for reasons that have little to do with academic ability (financial reasons, personal and family issues, mental health, environmental factors, etc.)

THANK YOU.

-someone who was diagnosed with bipolar and ADHD after having to drop out 2x from college. eventually graduated from a HBCU in my late 20s after getting medicated. I scored a 1420 with 3 APs from a low middle income family with no financial support, no test prep, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

Submitting AP scores aren't mandatory for college admissions. If you get a 5 and can get credit after admission, great.

what elite college admits students from public schools with zero AP tests taken? I thought all these admitted students had stellar academic scores, and low scoring students aren't being admitted?

Elite colleges see the AP classes] taken and grades on the transcript. Transcript submission is mandatory. Submitting the AP score isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Thank you!

But that’s not why American schools value. They want students that excel in many areas (more well rounded). Like it or not, that’s what elite American schools see as they key to success. Culturally, other countries see other paths to success.

Yes so that's what Asiasn Americans are like.
For the 100 millionth times, Assian Americans also excel in ECs and Leadership.
Welcome to the thread.

The post doesn’t say Asian Americans are not like that. It just says the countries that test are different than the US. There was no comment about Asian American students (who are American so your point?)

Great if you know that. Just making sure.
And we don't care about other country.