Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

DP : But what about everyone else? Real question: what’s the percentage of students who choose “quantitative “ majors? Outside of service academies and Tech schools, what’s a ballpark figure of how many students you’re talking about? I’m thinking it’s very small, but that’s based solely on my own academic experiences which have had a heavy liberal arts bias.

Oddly, at one point, SATs were probably one of the most significant factors that got URM students INTO highly selective schools in the first place. I think SATs are being misunderstood by many people as being a much more significant factor in admissions than they actually are — particularly after a certain range of scores.

Define quantitative. This is from 2017, https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/11/16/concentrations-2017/ but the rankings were Econ followed by comp sci followed by government, applied math and psychology. Three out of those. five are absolutely quantitive. For the other two, you're not going to be able to read a research paper or conduct a study without understanding math, but careful course selection may let you avoid that.

I’m the PP you’re responding to — and I asked the question to get a clearer understanding of how the PP that I responded to was defining “quantitative fields.”

In any case, I appreciate this information — and can see that the rankings are different from what I would have guessed. I’m now very curious about where English majors fall on that list. I’m also surprised— as a former Psych major myself — that psychology made the top five.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really hope that the downfall of AA will support the current shift in enrollment from white institutions to HBCUs. Black students have options (formed by necessity) so they will be fine.

I thought diversity was important.
Why would you go to a school with 80+% of the same race.

Who wants to be where they are not wanted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

This is the problem with the "you shouldn't rely on testing or test scores" crew. What is the alternative? Just "they can take what htey want to shape a class" is not sufficient for me and for a lot of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

The best independents are dropping AP classes because it leads to teaching to the test or some other excuse. If you pull all objective measures, schools will have to fall back on admitting the bulk of students who do well at schools that the colleges are already familiar with and then filling out classes with students from unknown schools and hoping. That situation works out really well if you attend an elite private school, and not so well if you attend a public school that doesn't regularly send graduates out of state or to top schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Do you really think Harvard would taint it's prestige by admitting students it didn't think these students would be successful?
The graduation rates for "unqualified" URMs are almost the same as Whites and Asians. Maybe you and your fancy brain can explain why these low-scoring URMs are not flunking out like you think they should.

DP. I’d also add that students who don’t graduate often do so for reasons that have little to do with academic ability (financial reasons, personal and family issues, mental health, environmental factors, etc.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

revoke what status? They are non-profits, it doesn't matter what their mission is so long as they are a non-profit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6


Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Still going, this thread has now become a self licking ice cream cone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

so elite colleges goal isn't about teaching and educating? The IRS needs to revoke their status then.

If a top prof is about research and not teaching, then why does anyone who cares about their kids higher education want their kid to go to such a school? Are you saying people who want affirmative action in education don't care about the student's education, and only about the experience outside the class?

revoke what status? They are non-profits, it doesn't matter what their mission is so long as they are a non-profit

the Dept of Education determines what institution is considered "educational". The IRS uses that designation for certain deductions. It absolutely matters what their mission is.

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/earned-income-tax-credit/eligible-educational-inst

If their mission is not academics, then the IRS needs to exclude those institutions from any tax deductions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

is it silly for colleges to take AP exam scores? They are also a data point from a 2 hour interval.

Grades can be overinflated; kids can cheat and get good grades.

What other academic measure should colleges use?

The best independents are dropping AP classes because it leads to teaching to the test or some other excuse. If you pull all objective measures, schools will have to fall back on admitting the bulk of students who do well at schools that the colleges are already familiar with and then filling out classes with students from unknown schools and hoping. That situation works out really well if you attend an elite private school, and not so well if you attend a public school that doesn't regularly send graduates out of state or to top schools.

And this is what those institutions did way back to exclude Jews. We've come full circle.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Thank you!

But that’s not why American schools value. They want students that excel in many areas (more well rounded). Like it or not, that’s what elite American schools see as they key to success. Culturally, other countries see other paths to success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??


https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

Ok 90% academics

I won’t try to put a percentage on it, but as someone who worked hard, got good grades, and got into my Grad school of choice, it’s been daunting to realize just how crucial networking is when it comes to getting actual jobs — including government jobs. I would welcome the opportunity to take a Civil Service exam. In retrospect, I wish I had known to party more, join clubs with kids from influential families, and foster long term meaningful relationships with professors and administrators at my Alma Mater.