Is it exclusion or having healthy boundaries?

[Anonymous]

DD (13) has a friend Larla - she often makes rude comments, and everyone calls her out on it, and they move on. She can also be "annoying" like: saying she's about to faint when teammates are working much harder (she's completely fine); lying about having the inside scoop about things at school that result in hurt feelings (i.e. who's making a team or getting into honor society, etc). The other kids will often say "Larla, please stop."

A recent example-- A boy says to a girl: "You're so photogenic, you look great in every picture, for real." The girl just says thanks but on the inside is so flattered and happy. Larla then says, "No, she's not photogenic. You're not photogenic. You don't look good in pictures at all." Then DD or someone will say, "Larla, that's not true and it's not nice." They do NOT then exclude her, or write her off as terrible. DD says sometimes, she's fine and they have fun. They try their best to stay friends and speak up for themselves and have boundaries. It is what it is.

DD's friend "Ann" invited DD over to her house. They discussed whether they should include Larla. If Larla found out about it, she would be mad and/or annoyed. So - they did include her. And she was super annoying the whole day. DD said, "it would have been so much more fun if Ann didn't invite Larla. But whatever."

It is really easy to imagine Larla's mom posting on DCUM - if she hadn't been invited, "they spend SO much time together at school, they are GOOD friends, and then they just EXCLUDE her?" I'm sure Larla's mom thinks Larla is sweet as pie. (Though she's no dummy and I think would admit to some of Larla's behavior if ever pressed.) I feel like DCUM is always like "Teens suck! What are their parents thinking! There is no excuse for this!" (I am probably guilty of this too!) When really, Larla is the mean one. I am not saying my DD and Ann are perfect, but this group of kids (theatre kids) is pretty darn nice and it is well known that Larla can say terrible things.

Are DD and Ann supposed to not spend time just the two of them, or lie about it? Should they not be friends with her because she can be mean? That would be exclusion - if suddenly they didn't eat lunch with her or sit with her at activities, right? And they don't do that. I think the adults here posting themselves don't spend time with "friends" who are mean and annoy them. Why do we expect more of kids? When is it exclusion and when is it self-preservation? How far are kids supposed to take the "be kind!!" adage? At some point, is this toxic positivity? These are honest questions, I'm curious what you all think.

[Anonymous]

This is definitely a tough situation. It sounds a little bit like there is an emphasis on being "nice" and "kind" among your DD and most of her peers but honestly, that is not always the preferred or appropriate response especially if someone is being hurtful and intentionally terrible to others.

I'd coach DD on reacting appropriately when someone is being nasty. Maybe role play a few scenarios.

Larla: *spouts nonsense*
DD: [pause] .... Wow ... why would you say something like that?"
Larla: Because it's true!
DD: Um, ok first of all that's your opinion. Second, you don't have to express every opinion you have. Especially to someone who is supposed to be your friend.

Or ... super slowly ... "What? .... Could you say that again?" (not because your DD misheard, but to let those words actually come out and breathe a bit, if that makes sense) .... what a ... strange ... thing to say.

Or: "Seriously? You just said that? To someone who is your friend?"

Also, a well timed widening of the eyes and saying "Yikes" can go a long way.

If Larla doesn't respond to the above, which I think of as addressing it but not fully calling out, maybe she does need to be called out. Something like: Larla, I like you and would like to stay friends with you but sometimes you say things that are just plain mean. What's up with that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is definitely a tough situation. It sounds a little bit like there is an emphasis on being "nice" and "kind" among your DD and most of her peers but honestly, that is not always the preferred or appropriate response especially if someone is being hurtful and intentionally terrible to others.

I'd coach DD on reacting appropriately when someone is being nasty. Maybe role play a few scenarios.

Larla: *spouts nonsense*
DD: [pause] .... Wow ... why would you say something like that?"
Larla: Because it's true!
DD: Um, ok first of all that's your opinion. Second, you don't have to express every opinion you have. Especially to someone who is supposed to be your friend.

Or ... super slowly ... "What? .... Could you say that again?" (not because your DD misheard, but to let those words actually come out and breathe a bit, if that makes sense) .... what a ... strange ... thing to say.

Or: "Seriously? You just said that? To someone who is your friend?"

Also, a well timed widening of the eyes and saying "Yikes" can go a long way.

If Larla doesn't respond to the above, which I think of as addressing it but not fully calling out, maybe she does need to be called out. Something like: Larla, I like you and would like to stay friends with you but sometimes you say things that are just plain mean. What's up with that?

Thank you! This is really good advice. The kids are definitely still at an age where they are learning how to act and how to respond. I will share these ideas with my DD. Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

This is a tough situation, but it sounds like your daughter and her friends are handling it really well. They’re standing up for themselves when Larla is rude but aren’t outright excluding her, which is a pretty mature balance. Still, it makes sense that they’d sometimes prefer to spend time without her, and that’s okay. Friendships don’t have to be all or nothing. If Larla gets upset about not being invited to everything, they can be honest—sometimes friends just want one-on-one time, and that’s normal.

When Larla says something rude, your daughter might try shifting from just correcting her to setting firmer boundaries. She could call it out more directly, redirect the conversation, or even respond with humor or indifference. If Larla keeps being difficult, it’s okay for your daughter to decide how much she wants to engage with her.

[Anonymous]

Someone in another forum said that if your kid says there are no mean kids, they are probably the mean kid.

My DS is friends with a mean kid who he calls his “best friend”. It sucks but my DS isn’t willing to change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough situation, but it sounds like your daughter and her friends are handling it really well. They’re standing up for themselves when Larla is rude but aren’t outright excluding her, which is a pretty mature balance. Still, it makes sense that they’d sometimes prefer to spend time without her, and that’s okay. Friendships don’t have to be all or nothing. If Larla gets upset about not being invited to everything, they can be honest—sometimes friends just want one-on-one time, and that’s normal.

When Larla says something rude, your daughter might try shifting from just correcting her to setting firmer boundaries. She could call it out more directly, redirect the conversation, or even respond with humor or indifference. If Larla keeps being difficult, it’s okay for your daughter to decide how much she wants to engage with her.

Thank you, you put this really well. I'm very glad the DD is not excluding Larla. As a mom, when you hear some of the mean comments, it's hard. I think you are right that it's totally fair to set firmer boundaries. I'm going to talk to DD about this. Appreciate your post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone in another forum said that if your kid says there are no mean kids, they are probably the mean kid.

My DS is friends with a mean kid who he calls his “best friend”. It sucks but my DS isn’t willing to change that.

Yes, it's tough to witness sometimes. But it's probably all a part of learning and growing, even if it is sometimes difficult and uncomfortable. Thank you for commiserating. -OP

[Anonymous]

Another tip for your daughter is if you have a good school counselor or a kind teacher, they might have advice. In a best case scenario, the other girl is getting seen and maybe could get some specific social skills help. Some kids take a while to learn that even if they believe something is true, they don't need to say it out loud.

[Anonymous]

They are allowed to chose their friends and just be respectful to the person they find rude. It's good to politely and firmly let her know when she is being offensive. They don't have to include her, but there should not be any posting on social media about gatherings where this girl isn't invited or talking about it in front of the person who isn't invited. That's where girls create unneeded drama.

[Anonymous]

Parents are so over involved, my god. That was a novel.

Let them invite who they want and learn their own consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are allowed to chose their friends and just be respectful to the person they find rude. It's good to politely and firmly let her know when she is being offensive. They don't have to include her, but there should not be any posting on social media about gatherings where this girl isn't invited or talking about it in front of the person who isn't invited. That's where girls create unneeded drama.

I think you raise a good point. So - are kids not allowed to post fun social things they do on social media because it could hurt feelings? What about adults? If someone could feel slighted (rightfully or wrongfully) but a few moms grabbing dinner, do you not post it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents are so over involved, my god. That was a novel.

Let them invite who they want and learn their own consequences.

+1. You have to stop controlling your kids and their friendships. 13 is when they should be figuring this out for themselves.

[Anonymous]

Why are they even friends with Larla at all? What positive traits does she bring to a friendship? Per your thesis statement, none. So why would they include her?

13 is old enough to be friends with whoever they want. If you're not nice, you don't get invited. "Inclusion" doesn't teach ill-behaved kids any consequences for their actions (or words).

[Anonymous]

+2

The posts here today are really showing how over-involved and babying you are to teens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents are so over involved, my god. That was a novel.

Let them invite who they want and learn their own consequences.

I agree. I’ll get over involved if someone is hurting someone but that they choose a rude kid to be their friend is their choice. She probably has something that they like about her but complain about the negative. Their choice if the want to keep her around.