Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Adult human female. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them sad, but physical safety is paramount to me. Truly sad that my definition feels exclusionary and makes people feel badly. But their feelings don’t trump women’s safety.

Limiting the definition of woman will not address your irrational fears.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woman
woman
an adult female human being:
an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth:
a wife or female sexual partner:
women in general:

My fears are not irrational.

Everyone who was born with a penis is not out to assault you.

Nah bro, but +95% of the people who want to assault us have a penis.

Go ahead dude, keep telling women how we should feel about our safety. Totally hysterical that we don’t want our female relatives to be incarcerated with violent males, right?

Unless you or your female relatives live in a red state, they are fine.

Irrational fears.

More gaslighting.

[Anonymous]

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jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts it is plain to me why people are so terrified of the documentary “What is a Woman?” It is must watch.

While I found the documentary to be entertaining, it was really asking the wrong question. The real question is what is a trans woman or trans man.

How can you get to what a trans woman is with first defining “woman?” Pretty sure he was asking the right question.

Why not ask “What is a man?”

Because they aren't scared of trans men. They don't think that trans men are grooming children or that they're a danger to men and children. They do claim that trans women are grooming children and are a danger to women and children so they want trans women to use men's bathrooms.

Hm, I wonder why you think that “they” are scared of trans men but not trans women? What ever could the reason for that be?

transmisogyny. It’s a blanket fear of all trans women.

But why only trans women? If fear is the motivation here, Shouldn’t they be more fearful of trans men since men are more violent?

Are you being intentionally obtuse? They don't see trans men as men.

So your point is that they don’t see trans women as women? Why do you think that is the case?

Because they don’t like transgender people and don’t think they should be allowed to transition or participating in society.

There are six levels of quotations here referring to "they". While I appreciate the avoidance of gendered language, can someone explain who "they" is?

Also, today the Southern Baptist Church voted 88%-11% to kick out a church because it supported female pastors. It will be interesting to see if that gets even 1/10 of the attention that John Hopkins' web page did.

Why are you conflating two entirely separate issues?

I don’t care who evangelicals let preach, just like I don’t care who Muslims, Satanists, Hindus or Zoroastrians let preach.

I thought the issue was women's rights. As some have been arguing, the trans community has little power beyond the ability to yell at people. Anti-trans legislators, on the other hand, have real power to make laws which they have been using not only against trans people, but against women in general. This is another case where those with power, in this case a religious institution with considerable influence, has taken clear cut action against women's rights. Something with more impact than a webpage. I expected it might generate, at best, a yawn. But, I was overly optimistic since it actually resulted in me being admonished. Maybe I was wrong about women's rights being the main concern?

No. Your premise is false. The trans community has already demonstrated its power to deny females their rights to define themselves and have the ability have sex segregated spaces like prisons, sports, and rape crisis centers. That is not little power, no?

No one is trying to make females (or males for that matter) adhere to evangelicalism or Islam or any other traditional faith based system. The only faith based system that is being enforced through legislation is transgenderism and gender identity.

So it’s not about women’s rights for you?

Of course. Are you unable to look at an issue from multiple dimensions?

I’m able to tease out the important issues.

Such as?

Millions of women across the US have had their rights stripped away.

More important than the random definitions on a college DEI website.

This thread is talking about LBGTQ issues related to stripping female rights. I keep my thoughts on abortions to those threads. Why not try staying on topic and dropping the whataboutism. It is possible to care about many issues related to women’s rights.

Because they are linked politically. When the people who screaming the loudest about "protecting women's spaces" are those who are actively trying to hurt women, then it's hard to separate them.

I’m not sure who you’re referring to. Myself and many other feminists donate to planned parenthood. Just be honest that you are trying to find any reason to discredit and diminish our opinions.

Because deep down you know that we have a point and that evolutionary biology is real. It’s OK, many of us were in your shoes at one point. You will figure it out eventually. Take care.

We've covered various aspects of how society and our government are addressing transgender "issues". Legislation, etc. It's all related.

Biology is sex organs. Everything else is a social construct.

No. Males are literally more powerful than females. This is not a social construct.

Thinking that only men should do certain things because some men are stronger than some women is a social construct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because it’s really distressing not to feel like your appearance matches your internal sense of self. I’m a woman with PCOS and my beard, receding hairline, and excessive body hair have literally made me suicidal. It doesn’t make me any less of a woman to have those male characteristics, but the dysphoria is intense.

I’m not debating with anyone that dysphoria isn’t real. I’m asking how gender identity is different than dysphoria because everyone says you don’t need to be dysphoric to be trans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Adult human female. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them sad, but physical safety is paramount to me. Truly sad that my definition feels exclusionary and makes people feel badly. But their feelings don’t trump women’s safety.

Limiting the definition of woman will not address your irrational fears.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woman
woman
an adult female human being:
an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth:
a wife or female sexual partner:
women in general:

My fears are not irrational.

Everyone who was born with a penis is not out to assault you.

Nah bro, but +95% of the people who want to assault us have a penis.

Go ahead dude, keep telling women how we should feel about our safety. Totally hysterical that we don’t want our female relatives to be incarcerated with violent males, right?

Unless you or your female relatives live in a red state, they are fine.

Irrational fears.

More gaslighting.

Facts. There just aren't that many transgender people out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because it’s really distressing not to feel like your appearance matches your internal sense of self. I’m a woman with PCOS and my beard, receding hairline, and excessive body hair have literally made me suicidal. It doesn’t make me any less of a woman to have those male characteristics, but the dysphoria is intense.

I’m not debating with anyone that dysphoria isn’t real. I’m asking how gender identity is different than dysphoria because everyone says you don’t need to be dysphoric to be trans.

transgender = gender identity differs from the sex assigned at birth

gender dysphoria = "psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one's sex assigned at birth and one's gender identity. Not all trans people experience dysphoria, and those who do may experience it at varying levels of intensity."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because there is a misalignment with some aspects of their gender identity and body parts.

So then it’s not just sense of self, it’s sense of sex. Because if they want their body parts to match their gender, they want to not just identify as a specific gender, they want to become a specific sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because there is a misalignment with some aspects of their gender identity and body parts.

So then it’s not just sense of self, it’s sense of sex. Because if they want their body parts to match their gender, they want to not just identify as a specific gender, they want to become a specific sex.

Wouldn’t transexual be a more appropriate term? Transgender seems to apply for people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes. Not the same thing as changing bodily sex characteristics. Why do people mix up these terms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because there is a misalignment with some aspects of their gender identity and body parts.

So then it’s not just sense of self, it’s sense of sex. Because if they want their body parts to match their gender, they want to not just identify as a specific gender, they want to become a specific sex.

Wouldn’t transexual be a more appropriate term? Transgender seems to apply for people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes. Not the same thing as changing bodily sex characteristics. Why do people mix up these terms.

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say for 60+ pages

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Adult human female. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them sad, but physical safety is paramount to me. Truly sad that my definition feels exclusionary and makes people feel badly. But their feelings don’t trump women’s safety.

Limiting the definition of woman will not address your irrational fears.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woman
woman
an adult female human being:
an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth:
a wife or female sexual partner:
women in general:

My fears are not irrational.

Everyone who was born with a penis is not out to assault you.

Nah bro, but +95% of the people who want to assault us have a penis.

Go ahead dude, keep telling women how we should feel about our safety. Totally hysterical that we don’t want our female relatives to be incarcerated with violent males, right?

Unless you or your female relatives live in a red state, they are fine.

Irrational fears.

More gaslighting.

Facts. There just aren't that many transgender people out there.

So then why on earth do we need to change language for so few people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Adult human female. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them sad, but physical safety is paramount to me. Truly sad that my definition feels exclusionary and makes people feel badly. But their feelings don’t trump women’s safety.

Limiting the definition of woman will not address your irrational fears.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woman
woman
an adult female human being:
an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth:
a wife or female sexual partner:
women in general:

My fears are not irrational.

Everyone who was born with a penis is not out to assault you.

Nah bro, but +95% of the people who want to assault us have a penis.

Go ahead dude, keep telling women how we should feel about our safety. Totally hysterical that we don’t want our female relatives to be incarcerated with violent males, right?

Unless you or your female relatives live in a red state, they are fine.

Irrational fears.

More gaslighting.

Facts. There just aren't that many transgender people out there.

So then why on earth do we need to change language for so few people?

Because the old timey language is no longer accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because it’s really distressing not to feel like your appearance matches your internal sense of self. I’m a woman with PCOS and my beard, receding hairline, and excessive body hair have literally made me suicidal. It doesn’t make me any less of a woman to have those male characteristics, but the dysphoria is intense.

I am so sorry you're dealing with this. I'm the DCUM trans woman and I've dealt with dysphoria around many of the same things (and more) in my life. Are you receiving treatment for any of it? I think some of the treatments are similar to what we get to help us transition. I understand the depression so well and I really hope you have someone to talk to. Please be safe. <3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It is a cheap rhetorical trick to constantly pretend, as Trans Radical Activists do, that this debate is the same as the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement. It isn’t, because in those debates, there was no conflict of rights between peoples.” X Shahana Ashur

This was incredibly helpful for me when trying to understand how to frame the argument.

Christians in TN refusing to process paperwork for gay men getting married. Cake shops. All that freedom of religion stuff where people claim their god hates gays.

Yes, and white supremacists had their feelings hurt by the Civil Rights Act.

But none of that is remotely similar to the actual increased physical risks that women take on to benefit the trans rights movement. And in the other two civil rights movements, there wasn’t a new rapacious medical industry whose continued profit depended on the success of the movement. And that is the difference here.

Yes, obnoxious Christian bakers got told to bake a stupid cake. I think most Americans rolled their eyes and told them to bake the stupid cake. That’s not a conflict of rights, that’s some snowflakes being told to do something that doesn’t physically hurt them at all.

But trans rights is very different because women are being and will get physically harmed due to the destruction of women’s single-sex spaces. Male predators (who will mostly be cis) have used and will use enhanced access to spaces they couldn’t previously access. Meanwhile, children and vulnerable adults have been and will be hurt by an industry that is profit-driven, growing rapidly, and repressing any academic research critical of their profit.

I want to be clear: I do not support bathroom bans, or bans on children’s access to treatment. But it needs to be okay to talk about the enormous societal harms that some people, disproportionately the most vulnerable, will pay for the advancement of transgender rights. Right now, that discussion is shut down entirely. Academics who so much as question some of the glaringly weak studies on transgender medical care for children risk losing their entire careers at the hands of activists. Women who speak about physical safety risks face grotesquely violent rape and death threats from trans activists.

All of this is very, very different from prior civil rights movements.

Trans people shouldn't be punished for things that a different group is doing. I'm glad you don't support bathroom bans, but so many people do. Cis men sometimes assault women, cis men take advantage to open access, so let's ban trans women from women's bathrooms. I've yet to see any information that shows allowing trans women access to women's bathrooms increases violent crimes against women. I've seen a study that showed violent crimes increase where there are unisex bathrooms, which is a completely different topic. I don't think there's going to be a big rush of cis men claiming to be trans women for 5 minute increments so they can use the women's bathroom, and if that does happen, again, that's a cis men problem not a trans problem.

The PP is intentionally conflating violent cis-gender men with transgender women.

How are we supposed to tell the difference? How?

One of my university friends is a pre-Hrt lesbian MTF. He (pronouns are still he/him) still “male modes” at work because he’s not out there but he has told me he sometimes uses female restrooms when out in public. So far into his transition (~1.5 yrs) he still looks like a 6’0 man with stubble and chin length hair, only he wears nail polish and jewelry but I’m not sure I would notice that from a distance. If I encountered him in a bathroom he would just look like a random big male person. And it would be frightening for me to be isolated with a strange male as I have been assaulted in my past. I can’t get over the fact that if I showed any sign of being nervous or not wanting him there in that situation I would be the bigot and could conceivably lose my job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It is a cheap rhetorical trick to constantly pretend, as Trans Radical Activists do, that this debate is the same as the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement. It isn’t, because in those debates, there was no conflict of rights between peoples.” X Shahana Ashur

This was incredibly helpful for me when trying to understand how to frame the argument.

Christians in TN refusing to process paperwork for gay men getting married. Cake shops. All that freedom of religion stuff where people claim their god hates gays.

Yes, and white supremacists had their feelings hurt by the Civil Rights Act.

But none of that is remotely similar to the actual increased physical risks that women take on to benefit the trans rights movement. And in the other two civil rights movements, there wasn’t a new rapacious medical industry whose continued profit depended on the success of the movement. And that is the difference here.

Yes, obnoxious Christian bakers got told to bake a stupid cake. I think most Americans rolled their eyes and told them to bake the stupid cake. That’s not a conflict of rights, that’s some snowflakes being told to do something that doesn’t physically hurt them at all.

But trans rights is very different because women are being and will get physically harmed due to the destruction of women’s single-sex spaces. Male predators (who will mostly be cis) have used and will use enhanced access to spaces they couldn’t previously access. Meanwhile, children and vulnerable adults have been and will be hurt by an industry that is profit-driven, growing rapidly, and repressing any academic research critical of their profit.

I want to be clear: I do not support bathroom bans, or bans on children’s access to treatment. But it needs to be okay to talk about the enormous societal harms that some people, disproportionately the most vulnerable, will pay for the advancement of transgender rights. Right now, that discussion is shut down entirely. Academics who so much as question some of the glaringly weak studies on transgender medical care for children risk losing their entire careers at the hands of activists. Women who speak about physical safety risks face grotesquely violent rape and death threats from trans activists.

All of this is very, very different from prior civil rights movements.

Trans people shouldn't be punished for things that a different group is doing. I'm glad you don't support bathroom bans, but so many people do. Cis men sometimes assault women, cis men take advantage to open access, so let's ban trans women from women's bathrooms. I've yet to see any information that shows allowing trans women access to women's bathrooms increases violent crimes against women. I've seen a study that showed violent crimes increase where there are unisex bathrooms, which is a completely different topic. I don't think there's going to be a big rush of cis men claiming to be trans women for 5 minute increments so they can use the women's bathroom, and if that does happen, again, that's a cis men problem not a trans problem.

The PP is intentionally conflating violent cis-gender men with transgender women.

How are we supposed to tell the difference? How?

One of my university friends is a pre-Hrt lesbian MTF. He (pronouns are still he/him) still “male modes” at work because he’s not out there but he has told me he sometimes uses female restrooms when out in public. So far into his transition (~1.5 yrs) he still looks like a 6’0 man with stubble and chin length hair, only he wears nail polish and jewelry but I’m not sure I would notice that from a distance. If I encountered him in a bathroom he would just look like a random big male person. And it would be frightening for me to be isolated with a strange male as I have been assaulted in my past. I can’t get over the fact that if I showed any sign of being nervous or not wanting him there in that situation I would be the bigot and could conceivably lose my job.

Yes, in many states and places there are laws protecting against discrimination on “gender identity”. Ex: washington spa case. Gender Identity which is literally a person making statements with zero basis in scientific reality.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Adult human female. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them sad, but physical safety is paramount to me. Truly sad that my definition feels exclusionary and makes people feel badly. But their feelings don’t trump women’s safety.[/quote]

Limiting the definition of woman will not address your irrational fears.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woman
woman
an adult female human being:
an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth:
a wife or female sexual partner:
women in general:
[/quote]

My fears are not irrational.[/quote]

Everyone who was born with a penis is not out to assault you. [/quote]

Nah bro, but +95% of the people who want to assault us have a penis.

Go ahead dude, keep telling women how we should feel about our safety. Totally hysterical that we don’t want our female relatives to be incarcerated with violent males, right?[/quote]

Unless you or your female relatives live in a red state, they are fine.

Irrational fears.
[/quote]

More gaslighting. [/quote]

Facts. There just aren't that many transgender people out there.
[/quote]

So then why on earth do we need to change language for so few people? [/quote]

Because the old timey language is no longer accurate. [/quote]

For a tiny minority. Everyone knows that a man is an adult human male.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

For most people, gender identity aligns with the sex assigned at birth, the American Psychological Association notes. For transgender people, gender identity differs in varying degrees from the sex assigned at birth.

I’m confused. If gender identity is related to internal sense of self, why is sex re-assignment hormones and surgery a common path of treatment?

Because it’s really distressing not to feel like your appearance matches your internal sense of self. I’m a woman with PCOS and my beard, receding hairline, and excessive body hair have literally made me suicidal. It doesn’t make me any less of a woman to have those male characteristics, but the dysphoria is intense.

I’m not debating with anyone that dysphoria isn’t real. I’m asking how gender identity is different than dysphoria because everyone says you don’t need to be dysphoric to be trans.

transgender = gender identity differs from the sex assigned at birth

gender dysphoria = "psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one's sex assigned at birth and one's gender identity. Not all trans people experience dysphoria, and those who do may experience it at varying levels of intensity."

So transgender is the same as gender dysphoria but without the psychological distress? Is that right?