NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

No your agenda seems to be that middle class folks should quit their current jobs to work the night shift at Walmart!

Plus you seem really ignorant to how prolonged school closures will affect the working class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the basic premise of the article is correct, but I have to admit, I am annoyed by her particular situation. She has a crazy successful blog and plenty of cookbooks. She could 1) move to a lower cost area (plenty of them still have cool food scenes), and 2) her husband could work part-time or stay home altogether to take care of the kids bc his wife is rich and has an awesome job. To me, she kind of sounded like "why isn't anyone helping me live in Brooklyn and write about cake!!!!!!"

Just because she has a cool job and lives in an interesting place doesn't make her life less stressful. Her husband was laid off and she was located in the middle of the worst COVID outbreak. She also is very professionally successful, which comes with the pressure to continue to produce. Stop devaluing her job just because you view it as less important "women's work."

Um, I'm not devaluing her job? Read my comment. I'm saying she has options (she's rich and works for herself) - they could move to a lower cost area and her husband could take care of the kids while she becomes the primary breadwinner with her awesome blog.

[Anonymous]

All of you need to stop whining and complaining! You chose to have children band they are your responsibility NOT THE SCHOOL SYSYEM!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

No your agenda seems to be that middle class folks should quit their current jobs to work the night shift at Walmart!

Plus you seem really ignorant to how prolonged school closures will affect the working class.

I think he also has a falsely rosy view of the impact of middle class people fleeing cities for cheaper far out exurbs and small towns. Besides it is impractical. How do you get more free time when you have a two hour commute? Or find a new job if they have to when the local economy sucks? But I guess the night shift at Walmart is plenty to support a family on, right? Lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

No your agenda seems to be that middle class folks should quit their current jobs to work the night shift at Walmart!

Plus you seem really ignorant to how prolonged school closures will affect the working class.

We’re going to be a nation of Walmart workers in trailers in the rural areas and nobody will do urban middle class jobs. Lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

No your agenda seems to be that middle class folks should quit their current jobs to work the night shift at Walmart!

Plus you seem really ignorant to how prolonged school closures will affect the working class.

We’re going to be a nation of Walmart workers in trailers in the rural areas and nobody will do urban middle class jobs. Lol

No nurses in city hospitals, no teachers, no firemen. They should all be working at Walmart in Southern Virginia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All of you need to stop whining and complaining! You chose to have children band they are your responsibility NOT THE SCHOOL SYSYEM!

Stop with this nonsense. Look at countries with declining birth rates begging their citizens to have children. There are actual economic consequences to not having a high enough birth rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of you need to stop whining and complaining! You chose to have children band they are your responsibility NOT THE SCHOOL SYSYEM!

Stop with this nonsense. Look at countries with declining birth rates begging their citizens to have children. There are actual economic consequences to not having a high enough birth rate.

Ours is outside the sweet spot though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

There's no bitterness like that of formerly middle-class people who finally realize they've become one of THOSE people. They denied it for years, even as they moved far away from jobs in order to find affordable places to live in higher-ranked public school districts. They had no sympathy for the people they considered their inferiors, the "uneducated" "working" class. (Of course, the "working" class distinction is ridiculous on its face. The middle class also works, doing fundamentally the same thing as the "working" class -- making the rich richer -- just in more comfortable offices.) Now they realize that they're essentially in the same boat, and it stings.

[Anonymous]

Question to those advocating to move, downsize, quit jobs, etc... how long do you think this is going to last? Do you really think it’s reasonable to change everything in your life for a temporary situation? Moving is expensive. Quitting your job in the face of an incoming recession/depression is stupid. Couples who can hang onto two jobs until a vaccine or we all give up and go back to school and work anyway will be in much better shape on the other side.

[Anonymous]

Workplace will have to adapt. There are plenty of very talented woman and I doubt business can loose that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the basic premise of the article is correct, but I have to admit, I am annoyed by her particular situation. She has a crazy successful blog and plenty of cookbooks. She could 1) move to a lower cost area (plenty of them still have cool food scenes), and 2) her husband could work part-time or stay home altogether to take care of the kids bc his wife is rich and has an awesome job. To me, she kind of sounded like "why isn't anyone helping me live in Brooklyn and write about cake!!!!!!"

Just because she has a cool job and lives in an interesting place doesn't make her life less stressful. Her husband was laid off and she was located in the middle of the worst COVID outbreak. She also is very professionally successful, which comes with the pressure to continue to produce. Stop devaluing her job just because you view it as less important "women's work."

Um, I'm not devaluing her job? Read my comment. I'm saying she has options (she's rich and works for herself) - they could move to a lower cost area and her husband could take care of the kids while she becomes the primary breadwinner with her awesome blog.

Nah, you posted to get a laugh out of your dumb joke. You didn’t even read (it understand or acknowledge) that her husband was furloughed and then laid off and is taking care of the kids. Her comments reflect what lots and lots of people are feeling. So even if she were to leave the NY/NJ area (where she grew up, by the way), millions would still be in this position. Perelman is shining on a light on issues that affect more than herself. Your comment was narrow and silly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

No your agenda seems to be that middle class folks should quit their current jobs to work the night shift at Walmart!

Plus you seem really ignorant to how prolonged school closures will affect the working class.

Agreed, you seem not to understand that the working class and their children will be much more hurt by the school closures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.

No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.

Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.

If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.

They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.

But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.

I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.

We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?

And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.

You can afford a cheaper rental elsewhere then.

We’re also in a rental. Stuck here because of a custody agreement with my XH and can’t move from MoCo for 4 more years. Look in the exurbs for a place that is $900-1200/mo. And consider working at Walmart or other retail job that would allow you to schedule opposite your spouse. Working class people have to figure this out all the time. Your situation isn’t remarkable, it’s just new to you.

And why would you think that these difficulties should be what everyone is reduced to, rather than implementing policies that don’t screw over working class families?

Middle class people are just now getting outraged about the issues that working class families have always dealt with. That’s what irritates me. That we’re supposed to catch religion now that it’s you suffering.

Ah so there is an agenda here- bitterness.

My agenda would be that going forward middle class people not assume they are smarter or better than people who are struggling and instead be allies. Isn’t that that a good agenda?

There's no bitterness like that of formerly middle-class people who finally realize they've become one of THOSE people. They denied it for years, even as they moved far away from jobs in order to find affordable places to live in higher-ranked public school districts. They had no sympathy for the people they considered their inferiors, the "uneducated" "working" class. (Of course, the "working" class distinction is ridiculous on its face. The middle class also works, doing fundamentally the same thing as the "working" class -- making the rich richer -- just in more comfortable offices.) Now they realize that they're essentially in the same boat, and it stings.

I dunno, as a middle class millennial with kids, this whole situation (not just covid, the trends of the last decade) makes me way less likely to think of anyone as "less than" due to their job or education and divide working/middle class into "us" and "them." It's very clear the "us" and "them" are the rich and the rest of us. If we can't get together a functional government, stop funneling emergency aid to huge corporations while telling service workers without health insurance to get back to work in a pandemic, and recognize the need for basic public services (like schools) as a collective rather than individual effort...well, you're not gonna see the middle class behave like you're expecting.